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The European Debate Thread

Benfleet A1

Hector Of The House
Joined
Jan 19, 2007
Messages
8,569
Location
Slade Prison
Can I point out from the very start that this is a thread for debate and not for a certain individual to post pointless links and ignore other posts that don't fit in with his own views. I thank you.

It would appear that Cameron will be banging his head against a brick wall when he attends the leaders meeting in February to discuss possible changes. The perpetual drunk Juncker is already laying out his stall, with a closed sign on it.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/eu/11353914/Jean-Claude-Juncker-compares-British-membership-of-EU-to-doomed-romance.html

Thoughts?
 

Bielzibubz

President
Joined
Feb 21, 2006
Messages
4,757
Location
Eastwood, the posh part of Rayleigh..
I have a feeling that the status quo will be maintained but somehow Camemoron will return and spin it for all it's worth to make it sound like it's been a great success for the UK and his policies. Nothing he or anyone else will stop the European Superstate juggernaut steaming ahead and running rough shod over anyone and anything that stands in it's way.
 

Massimo Giovanni

Old Timer⭐
Joined
May 10, 2011
Messages
9,868
Location
Siena
There is no debate about Europe.

The Tories won't win the G/E in May, therefore there won't be a referendum on Europe any time soon.

QED.

Get used to it.


It is unlikely any party will win a majority in May; they (Reds or Blues) might form a coalition with whoever; but that seem increasingly unlikely AND if it happens then it will be difficult (harder than the present effort) and I predict a further GE within 2 years at which the EU referendum WILL be a major issue and vote "winner".
 

Tangled up in Blue

Certified Senior Citizen⭐
Joined
May 24, 2004
Messages
33,220
Location
Sant Cugat del Vallès
It is unlikely any party will win a majority in May; they (Reds or Blues) might form a coalition with whoever; but that seem increasingly unlikely AND if it happens then it will be difficult (harder than the present effort) and I predict a further GE within 2 years at which the EU referendum WILL be a major issue and vote "winner".

I tend to agree with you, as regards the two parts of your post I've bolded.

However,Europe is not really an issue for most voters (it comes quite way down on any priority list after the economy,NHS,terrorism,energy bills etc).It most certainly is a UKIP issue, however.Which is precisely why GHG started this thread.

As I've said,I doubt if there'll be a refendum on Europe any time soon.

Even if there were,I'd expect the common sense of the British people to prevail and would expect a majority vote to stay in,after a long period of political debate (as there was in 1975),which hasn't really happened at all so far.

The political and business elites have been running scared from putting the case for staying in the EU,so far.Presumably any election,or referendum, where Europe was a genuine issue would encourage them to come out of the woodwork.
 
Joined
Jun 22, 2009
Messages
4,695
Location
Loughton - the only way is Orange!
It doesn't matter who wins the GE come May as UKIP are here to stay. For what it's worth I don't expect UKIP to poll very highly as the fear of Red Ed and the SNP running the country will ensure the tories hold onto a few more seats and maybe gain a few. However, UKIP won the euro elections so despite what some on here say, debate will have to be had.
Democracy demands it.
 

superblue24

Director
Joined
Nov 4, 2009
Messages
3,538
Location
Ipswich
I tend to agree with you, as regards the two parts of your post I've bolded.

However,Europe is not really an issue for most voters (it comes quite way down on any priority list after the economy,NHS,terrorism,energy bills etc).It most certainly is a UKIP issue, however.Which is precisely why GHG started this thread.

As I've said,I doubt if there'll be a refendum on Europe any time soon.

Even if there were,I'd expect the common sense of the British people to prevail and would expect a majority vote to stay in,after a long period of political debate (as there was in 1975),which hasn't really happened at all so far.

The political and business elites have been running scared from putting the case for staying in the EU.

Most opinion polls tend to disagree with your statement.
 
Joined
Jun 22, 2009
Messages
4,695
Location
Loughton - the only way is Orange!
I tend to agree with you, as regards the two parts of your post I've bolded.

However,Europe is not really an issue for most voters (it comes quite way down on any priority list after the economy,NHS,terrorism,energy bills etc).It most certainly is a UKIP issue, however.Which is precisely why GHG started this thread.

As I've said,I doubt if there'll be a refendum on Europe any time soon.

Even if there were,I'd expect the common sense of the British people to prevail and would expect a majority vote to stay in,after a long period of political debate (as there was in 1975),which hasn't really happened at all so far.

The political and business elites have been running scared from putting the case for staying in the EU,so far.Presumably any election where Europe was a genuine issue would encourage them to come out of the woodwork.

You've missed out immigration which is a major concern for lots of us actually living in the country.
Oh, you missed the deficit out as well - must of copied your reply from the Labour manifesto
 

Tangled up in Blue

Certified Senior Citizen⭐
Joined
May 24, 2004
Messages
33,220
Location
Sant Cugat del Vallès
It doesn't matter who wins the GE come May as UKIP are here to stay. For what it's worth I don't expect UKIP to poll very highly as the fear of Red Ed and the SNP running the country will ensure the tories hold onto a few more seats and maybe gain a few. However, UKIP won the euro elections so despite what some on here say, debate will have to be had.
Democracy demands it
.

I don't think UKIP's 4/6 MP's will have much influence at all after May.

The European elections were held on the basis of PR.Parliamentary elections are not.

This is really a sterile debate.
 
Joined
Jun 22, 2009
Messages
4,695
Location
Loughton - the only way is Orange!
I don't think UKIP's 4/6 MP's will have much influence at all after May.

The European elections were held on the basis of PR.Parliamentary elections are not.

This is really a sterile debate.

I don't expect them to have that many TBH for reasons I've already stated. Don't quite understand your point about PR. I'm well aware of the voting systems in the UK but the fact remains that UKIP won the Euro elections on a "Anti EU" agenda. Therefore a debate on europe is called for.
 

Tangled up in Blue

Certified Senior Citizen⭐
Joined
May 24, 2004
Messages
33,220
Location
Sant Cugat del Vallès
You've missed out immigration which is a major concern for lots of us actually living in the country.
Oh, you missed the deficit out as well - must of copied your reply from the Labour manifesto

Typical UKIP nonsense.

Immigration from other EU states is non-negociable issue (as Cameron will shortly find out).

The Tories failure to reduce the deficit in 5 years (as promised ) and their programme of 5 years more of austerity (ie savage cuts )will cost them the election in May.
 

Tangled up in Blue

Certified Senior Citizen⭐
Joined
May 24, 2004
Messages
33,220
Location
Sant Cugat del Vallès
I don't expect them to have that many TBH for reasons I've already stated. Don't quite understand your point about PR. I'm well aware of the voting systems in the UK but the fact remains that UKIP won the Euro elections on a "Anti EU" agenda. Therefore a debate on europe is called for.

That was a protest vote,made possible by PR.

General elections are not protest votes.

UKIP's 15% share of the poll in most constituencies, will just see them get buried in the first past the post system.
 

Bielzibubz

President
Joined
Feb 21, 2006
Messages
4,757
Location
Eastwood, the posh part of Rayleigh..
Again, how in the hell would you know what's important to the average British voter. You haven't lived here in God knows how many years and your Commie left wing agenda has completely blinkered you into having a balanced view on anything and everything. You constantly cherry pick the news articles (99% of which are from that well balanced broardsheet The Guardian) and base your arguments and opinions around them and completely refuse to hear or even acknowledge others.

I live year. I work here. I listen to the people around me that also live and work here and have done for many many years and I'll tell you now my commie Comrade friend immigration is a major issue here for many. I'll tell you what's also becoming more and more of an issue too. The sheer scale of the political and financial corruption that's gone hand in hand with being a member of the EU since day one. The great British public are, at last, starting to wake up to the idea that perhaps, just perhaps, being members of the great European superstate is not all it's cracked up to be and any politician that doesn't recognize when is the right time to listen and act on what the majority of the people want is on a very long and slippery slope to political oblivion.

I'm sorry you can't even begin to understand where I'm coming from here but that's what happens when you have a closed mind and an ingrained dogmatic political ideology.

As I said before. I fully expect the status quo to be maintained in the short term but the wake up siren has well and truly sounded and the British voting public have heard it.
 

shrimpled

Director⭐
Joined
Dec 16, 2006
Messages
2,854
It is unlikely any party will win a majority in May; they (Reds or Blues) might form a coalition with whoever; but that seem increasingly unlikely AND if it happens then it will be difficult (harder than the present effort) and I predict a further GE within 2 years at which the EU referendum WILL be a major issue and vote "winner".

Whatever happens, the next General Election is 2020 as we now have fixed term parliaments. I don't believe there's any appetite in the House to change this, notwithstanding what may happen in May.
 

shrimpled

Director⭐
Joined
Dec 16, 2006
Messages
2,854
That was a protest vote,made possible by PR.

General elections are not protest votes.

UKIP's 15% share of the poll in most constituencies, will just see them get buried in the first past the post system.

Whilst I'm not in total disagreement with your sentiments I do think you're slightly misguided in simply discarding the success of UKIP in May 2014 as a 'protest vote'. Whilst there is absolutely no chance of UKIP doing anywhere near as well as they did in the Euro election in the GE, the EU election was the correct forum for voters to voice their disdain for the perceived influence the EU has over our affairs. The result was telling.

When people talk about immigration, mostly they are not talking about 'people coming over here and stealing our jobs & pinching our benefits' although I accept that some people take this view. The concerns are around the growth in our population and the strain this has placed on the infrastructure of our Country. The time it takes to see a GP, the overcrowded state of our railways, the crumbling road network, the lack of housing etc etc.

Governments of all colours since the Second World War have simply failed to invest in the infrastructure of this Country to the necessary level and that's where the problems come from.
 

Another Surrey Shrimper

Life President
Joined
Jun 4, 2011
Messages
8,906
Location
Carshalton, Surrey
You've missed out immigration which is a major concern for lots of us actually living in the country.
Oh, you missed the deficit out as well - must of copied your reply from the Labour manifesto
You are getting mixed up between a manifesto and a single speach which was attempted without a prompt. You will find the list of key policy areas Cameron issued recently also misses of some of what you find important.
 

Massimo Giovanni

Old Timer⭐
Joined
May 10, 2011
Messages
9,868
Location
Siena
I am sure it has been argued before that immigration and EHR directives are all part of the EU in/out debate & that there are links to economy, schooling, terrorism/security and NHS because of lack of control/ability for UK Gov to tackle issues as Brussels has the final say.
I respect Barney's liberal free thinking however the EU referendum vote will happen inside next 5 years unless the EU allows more powers/opt outs to Westminster; and does it PDQ.
 

Tangled up in Blue

Certified Senior Citizen⭐
Joined
May 24, 2004
Messages
33,220
Location
Sant Cugat del Vallès
Again, how in the hell would you know what's important to the average British voter. You haven't lived here in God knows how many years and your Commie left wing agenda has completely blinkered you into having a balanced view on anything and everything. You constantly cherry pick the news articles (99% of which are from that well balanced broardsheet The Guardian) and base your arguments and opinions around them and completely refuse to hear or even acknowledge others.

I live year. I work here. I listen to the people around me that also live and work here and have done for many many years and I'll tell you now my commie Comrade friend immigration is a major issue here for many. I'll tell you what's also becoming more and more of an issue too. The sheer scale of the political and financial corruption that's gone hand in hand with being a member of the EU since day one. The great British public are, at last, starting to wake up to the idea that perhaps, just perhaps, being members of the great European superstate is not all it's cracked up to be and any politician that doesn't recognize when is the right time to listen and act on what the majority of the people want is on a very long and slippery slope to political oblivion.

I'm sorry you can't even begin to understand where I'm coming from here but that's what happens when you have a closed mind and an ingrained dogmatic political ideology.

As I said before. I fully expect the status quo to be maintained in the short term but the wake up siren has well and truly sounded and the British voting public have heard it.

Yawn.

I've already explained that I come over to the UK two/three times a year.I keep up with GB current affairs through regularly reading British newspapers and watching British news channels.Believe or not, I even have GB friends and family.

Btw,the recent expenses scandal in the UK, exposed much more evidence of corruption than anything you see in the EU Parliament.
 
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