The Sin of Not Endorsing Homosexuality

[osymandus]

Adam and Eve, not Adam and Steve.

You forgot Lilth the demon spawning , literally first wife ;) . Also liked a bit of both as i recall ;)

 

[Tangled up in Blue]

I do not agree with homosexuality

As long as it's not compulsory,what's the problem?:unsure:

 

[Benfleet A1]

No idea mate, I'm no expert. I agree engaging in homosexual activity is not a good way to propergate the species, but it's obviously a tiny %age of animals that do it (if they're predominitely homo rather than bisexual), or there'd be mass extinction.

That answers something for me. I always suspected that Dodo's were bent.

 

[osymandus]

That answers something for me. I always suspected that Dodo's were bent.

Sadly their crime was being both stupid and tasty. The second of which nearly caused the extinction of the giant tortoise (Darwin you ******* )

 

[OldBlueLady]

Stumbled across this debate a little late, now, my stance on this is very similar to ORM's. I have absolutely no issue with gays or lesbians, it is their life and how they choose to live it is up to them. I know, and have worked with both gay men and women, most of whom have been delightful people - witty, sensitive and very kind. However, by nature of the choice they have made they automatically relinquish any right to procreate because until women can produce semen or men ovulate then there is no natural way to have children. That's not to say gay couples can't make good parents, I'm sure many of them do, but they will have secured the assistance of at least one other party in obtaining "their" family.

Now, anyone that thinks that a normal, everyday school is going to be a safe haven for a child of a gay couple is living in cloud cuckoo land. Children are incredibly cruel and the minute kids realise that you live with two parents of the same sex then their child is going to be a continuous target. I see it everyday, children will pick on other kids who've only got one parent, live with grandparents or are in care - anything that isn't "normal" - and they say really horrible stuff to each other. Those who have the money like those two blokes in Danbury (Tony and Barrie something or another) and Elton John and David Furnish will be able to protect their kids because that's what money does, but the everyday gay couple having a kid is going to subject that kid to hell in school.

Live and let live, yes absolutely, but DON'T force your gay lifestyle choice on an innocent kid.

 

[southendkid]

Stumbled across this debate a little late, now, my stance on this is very similar to ORM's. I have absolutely no issue with gays or lesbians, it is their life and how they choose to live it is up to them. I know, and have worked with both gay men and women, most of whom have been delightful people - witty, sensitive and very kind. However, by nature of the choice they have made they automatically relinquish any right to procreate because until women can produce semen or men ovulate then there is no natural way to have children. That's not to say gay couples can't make good parents, I'm sure many of them do, but they will have secured the assistance of at least one other party in obtaining "their" family.

Now, anyone that thinks that a normal, everyday school is going to be a safe haven for a child of a gay couple is living in cloud cuckoo land. Children are incredibly cruel and the minute kids realise that you live with two parents of the same sex then their child is going to be a continuous target. I see it everyday, children will pick on other kids who've only got one parent, live with grandparents or are in care - anything that isn't "normal" - and they say really horrible stuff to each other. Those who have the money like those two blokes in Danbury (Tony and Barrie something or another) and Elton John and David Furnish will be able to protect their kids because that's what money does, but the everyday gay couple having a kid is going to subject that kid to hell in school.

Live and let live, yes absolutely, but DON'T force your gay lifestyle choice on an innocent kid.

This, kids target anyone who's different, but there is a problem when people tell their kid homosexuality is wrong

 

[osymandus]

Stumbled across this debate a little late, now, my stance on this is very similar to ORM's. I have absolutely no issue with gays or lesbians, it is their life and how they choose to live it is up to them. I know, and have worked with both gay men and women, most of whom have been delightful people - witty, sensitive and very kind. However, by nature of the choice they have made they automatically relinquish any right to procreate because until women can produce semen or men ovulate then there is no natural way to have children. That's not to say gay couples can't make good parents, I'm sure many of them do, but they will have secured the assistance of at least one other party in obtaining "their" family.

Now, anyone that thinks that a normal, everyday school is going to be a safe haven for a child of a gay couple is living in cloud cuckoo land. Children are incredibly cruel and the minute kids realise that you live with two parents of the same sex then their child is going to be a continuous target. I see it everyday, children will pick on other kids who've only got one parent, live with grandparents or are in care - anything that isn't "normal" - and they say really horrible stuff to each other. Those who have the money like those two blokes in Danbury (Tony and Barrie something or another) and Elton John and David Furnish will be able to protect their kids because that's what money does, but the everyday gay couple having a kid is going to subject that kid to hell in school.

Live and let live, yes absolutely, but DON'T force your gay lifestyle choice on an innocent kid.

OBL your making the assumption that it is a choice in the same way you choose to be attracted to men ? Also as already pointed out before the desire to procreate is seperate (and has been shown by psychologist and anthropologists ) to that of sexual preference . Homosexual preference has been recorded certainly as far back as ancient Rome (and Greece , and probably Sumaria and Babylon ) for the purposes of procreation there appears to be little problem , what we are debating here is our societies morality towards it and how it fits with in a moral frame work , which his little to do with the practical methods of evolution to dictate the survival or mostly likely to produce fit , intelligent off spring.

Going back to the kids picking on others , this is just as likely with the so called "normal" kid's as well , the gangs are ape social structures being formed , which would not precluded a child of gay parents from being able to fight back (physically or verbally ) or even forming their own tribes to protect themselves.

 

[southendkid]

OBL your making the assumption that it is a choice in the same way you choose to be attracted to men ? Also as already pointed out before the desire to procreate is seperate (and has been shown by psychologist and anthropologists ) to that of sexual preference . Homosexual preference has been recorded certainly as far back as ancient Rome (and Greece , and probably Sumaria and Babylon ) for the purposes of procreation there appears to be little problem , what we are debating here is our societies morality towards it and how it fits with in a moral frame work , which his little to do with the practical methods of evolution to dictate the survival or mostly likely to produce fit , intelligent off spring.

Going back to the kids picking on others , this is just as likely with the so called "normal" kid's as well , the gangs are ape social structures being formed , which would not precluded a child of gay parents from being able to fight back (physically or verbally ) or even forming their own tribes to protect themselves.

The problem is people tend to gravitate towards others who are similar to them, if people are being picked on for being too smart then they will gravitate towards each other, the kid with gay parents may find it harder to find people to accept them

 

[osymandus]

The problem is people tend to gravitate towards others who are similar to them, if people are being picked on for being too smart then they will gravitate towards each other, the kid with gay parents may find it harder to find people to accept them

Not always to do with social background you may find . If the kid's funny and personable he/she develops friends . I think those who are goth/alternate probably are more likely to get more stick.

 

[OldBlueLady]

This, kids target anyone who's different, but there is a problem when people tell their kid homosexuality is wrong

Of course there is, it is right to teach children at the appropriate age that there are different types of relationship, and that a woman, for instance, can have a very loving relationship with a best mate or a physical relationship with another woman, however, it doesn't mean that the whole man/woman relationship should be downgraded as a lot of the civil rights people would have us do to actually promote homosexuality. I've seen the sex ed dvds that are used in schools, and Infant school children can be exposed to homosexuality as part of that, not in any detail of course, but just portraying the normality of such a relationship. I've counselled children who have wanted to talk about this, reassured them that it is completely normal, but I'm not going to go out there and say homosexuality is "right", nor am I going to say it's "wrong".

Prejudices are rife in all areas and you'll never get away from gay prejudice, in the same way you'll never get away from people telling non pc jokes, there is no right or wrong in this as far as I'm concerned, but I am totally against homosexual couples "having" kids.....whether that's fostering, adopting or surrogacy and that is because I am looking at it from the child's point of view. Gay couples talk about their "rights" all the time, well, what about the child's "rights". There are plenty of heterosexual couples who would love to adopt or foster but are turned down for stupid reasons such as age or the fact that they're overweight or one of them smokes. Is this actually worse for the child?

 

[MK Shrimper]

I've counselled children who have wanted to talk about this, reassured them that it is completely normal, but I'm not going to go out there and say homosexuality is "right", nor am I going to say it's "wrong".

I will. Love is right, irrespective of between which genders and hatred of that very fact is wrong.

 

[osymandus]

Of course there is, it is right to teach children at the appropriate age that there are different types of relationship, and that a woman, for instance, can have a very loving relationship with a best mate or a physical relationship with another woman, however, it doesn't mean that the whole man/woman relationship should be downgraded as a lot of the civil rights people would have us do to actually promote homosexuality. I've seen the sex ed dvds that are used in schools, and Infant school children can be exposed to homosexuality as part of that, not in any detail of course, but just portraying the normality of such a relationship. I've counselled children who have wanted to talk about this, reassured them that it is completely normal, but I'm not going to go out there and say homosexuality is "right", nor am I going to say it's "wrong".

Prejudices are rife in all areas and you'll never get away from gay prejudice, in the same way you'll never get away from people telling non pc jokes, there is no right or wrong in this as far as I'm concerned, but I am totally against homosexual couples "having" kids.....whether that's fostering, adopting or surrogacy and that is because I am looking at it from the child's point of view. Gay couples talk about their "rights" all the time, well, what about the child's "rights". There are plenty of heterosexual couples who would love to adopt or foster but are turned down for stupid reasons such as age or the fact that they're overweight or one of them smokes. Is this actually worse for the child?

Passive smoking and possibly early death for the children's careers , I would say there is a possibility it could be worse yes .
I do like your approach to saying it is neither right nor wrong as it simply is . I don;t agree that we prompt either hetro or homosexuality, rather we give the children the knowledge that they can be who they are (suicides were very high a few years back among young males who felt they couldn't come out (young males are among the highest suicide risks anyway)).

Lastly I especially impressed that loving relationships are being shown that can occur beside those drivinen by lust or sexual outcome , this is something if we do "prompt" anything that should be high on the agenda . We all love our best friends and family yet we know, this is se[erate from a sexual/intimate relationship we can come o have with a partner and it sounds wonderful that kid's are being taught to realise that there is a difference.

Knowledge liberates us ignorance does not.

 

[osymandus]

I will. Love is right, irrespective of between which genders and hatred of that very fact is wrong.

Actually MK , i think sometimes saying a thing is right or wrong can make it far worse . Norm or normal is really a mathematical term , the only normal we can ever be or achieve is on a statistical data sheet.

 

[OldBlueLady]

I will. Love is right, irrespective of between which genders and hatred of that very fact is wrong.

I don't think you quite understood my point there Paul, or maybe I didn't make it clear. I meant that in talking to children at school arising from questions, I'm not going to say it's right or wrong. That's not for me to do with other people's children, I might try and clarify prejudices that have been built at home but I can't do any more than that. My own have been brought up to be tolerant of other people and their sexual preferences but it would be completely inappropriate for me to tell a bunch of 10 or 11 year olds (or younger!!!) that homosexuality is right or wrong, which is why I take the approach that it is "normal".

Maybe therefore, I am sinful in not endorsing homosexuality, rather just informing, within my working environment?

 

[ibwiajwa]

Oh please. What makes you gay then? A prediliction for musicals and Julie Garland? Exposure to John Inman at an early age?

So, how would you explain the many scientifically recorded homsexual acts between animals if they were not born that way?

I don't like homophobia either but I can't help thinking that this is lazy science. The line of reasoning seems to be that if homosexual behaviour is observable in animals then it must be natural to man because man is an animal. Would we apply this reasoning to intra-species cannibalism which is observable in the animal kingdom? Much of the research described on this thread (mainly from the States) has been subsequently discredited. In addition, research based around the behaviour of twins is usually complicated by social factors. It is difficult for scientists to overcome the paradox that if homosexuality is genetic, why has it not been overcome by natural selection? There is some interesting research around at the moment about the possibility of homosexuality being passed down on the x chromosome (i.e. from the mother), linked with late birth, being part of a large family with a preponderance of older brothers etc. etc. but the scientists involved have the humility to say that further research is needed and that definitive claims cannot be made at the present time. Unfortunately the same level of humility cannot be attributed to the media who relay such findings as fact, leading to the layman's orthodoxy that is being put over here.

 

[MK Shrimper]

Maybe therefore, I am sinful in not endorsing homosexuality, rather just informing, within my working environment?

I don't think it matters one jot Kay. I wouldn't endorse it either with the amount of prejudice that's out there, but if a person has those tendencies then they'll be that person.

Would we apply this reasoning to intra-species cannibalism which is observable in the animal kingdom?

Well it happened and I'm sure if planet Earth becomes like that depicted in The Road, it'd happen again. We are nothing but shaved monkeys with I-phones.

And I've got no proof to question your comments on research but I'd be interested to know who funding it. America to me speaks of religious right and those churches that believe they can "cure" homosexuality, though as I'm willing to admit that may be my prejudice!

 

[osymandus]

I don't like homophobia either but I can't help thinking that this is lazy science. The line of reasoning seems to be that if homosexual behaviour is observable in animals then it must be natural to man because man is an animal. Would we apply this reasoning to intra-species cannibalism which is observable in the animal kingdom? Much of the research described on this thread (mainly from the States) has been subsequently discredited. In addition, research based around the behaviour of twins is usually complicated by social factors. It is difficult for scientists to overcome the paradox that if homosexuality is genetic, why has it not been overcome by natural selection? There is some interesting research around at the moment about the possibility of homosexuality being passed down on the x chromosome (i.e. from the mother), linked with late birth, being part of a large family with a preponderance of older brothers etc. etc. but the scientists involved have the humility to say that further research is needed and that definitive claims cannot be made at the present time. Unfortunately the same level of humility cannot be attributed to the media who relay such findings as fact, leading to the layman's orthodoxy that is being put over here.

The idea that is a function (not unlike canabalism ) of over population, it is possible , but the size of humanity has old really become possible post industrial revolution. And we then also run the same mistake of logic being teh only prevailing perception of live itself .

Though the book Your Genes Unzipped: A Guide to How Your Genetic Inheritance Can Shape Your Life Tim Spector , they explain that twins are among the best used as social influences are lesser and they are essentially clones (which gentics wise they are ). Im not sure how the influence of teh X chromosome in that form if your inferring maternal influence , as the variants of masculine and very macho homosexual men seems to reduce that (their not all queen syo uknow ) , never mind Lesbians , dykes and diesel dykes ;)

 

[Rob Noxious]

The idea that is a function (not unlike canabalism ) of over population, it is possible , but the size of humanity has old really become possible post industrial revolution. And we then also run the same mistake of logic being teh only prevailing perception of live itself .

Though the book Your Genes Unzipped: A Guide to How Your Genetic Inheritance Can Shape Your Life Tim Spector , they explain that twins are among the best used as social influences are lesser and they are essentially clones (which gentics wise they are ). Im not sure how the influence of teh X chromosome in that form if your inferring maternal influence , as the variants of masculine and very macho homosexual men seems to reduce that (their not all queen syo uknow ) , never mind Lesbians , dykes and diesel dykes ;)

Good point, Osy. A gay guy I know can certainly look after himself (and his 'partner') and doesn't shrink from a bit of macho combat when required.

 

[Rudi Luftwaffe]

I don't think Elton John's kid will get any trouble at school because his dad is gay.

If they find out his dad is a Watford fan though he is ****ed.

 

[Rudi Luftwaffe]

Delightful The Bible. Please don't be gay, you can rape my virgin daughters all you like however.

The chariot race which Charlton Heston wins is ****ing great though.