Time for RM to show he means it - actions speak louder than words !

[GBJ]

But what if the ones we get in January are good?

I'm not disagreeing with you - I'm old enough to have seen every relegation and promotion this club has ever had so I know what's possible. And there will be a season of relegation at some point in the future just as there will be a season of promotion.

It's what happens in football and you can't turn down a new stadium just because we might be relegated at some point. Suppose Ron sells out to some wealthy owner in the future who bankrolls us to the Prem? We need to be able to try and compete.

As i said earlier, that is the other side of the gamble. If it pays off, everyone's a winner. Ron's made his bit, and we're in a new stadium looking to the future.
I'm not suggesting for one minute we turn down the offer/chance of a new stadium, far from it. I totally understand, and agree the new stadium is the way to go, but at the same time, we have to think about the present surely?. IF we got relegated to L2, how long would we be there? Would we ever get back out? No-one wants to see the team in that league again. We all know Eastwood was a one off and you could argue it was his goals that got us out of that league. How long will it be before we could find another gem like that?

The new stadium is a priority, but surely staying in this league is just as big, if not more of a priority? The club have come on so far from those ***** Div 3 days, do we really wanna risk going back to them? I'm not saying throw millions after players, or big names, but what is evident we can't rely on loan players.

Just say, we get 3 or 4 top quality loanees in this month. We have a brilliant rest of season and finish top half. Everyone's happy, but it's merely papering over the cracks as those decent loanees will (more than likely) be off in the summer. So the start of next season we're back to where we are now, which is the same position we've been in since Gower/Bailey left.

How long can we go on relying on loanees from season to season to keep us in this league?

 

[GBJ]

And of all those talented youngsters, who obviously developed at an early age and were probably thought of as wonder kids at whatever time they made their debuts, I have only ever heard of one of them -

When i was a kid i played against Moses Ashikodi. He went on to play for Millwall, West Ham, Rangers, Watford to name a few. I think he's at Kettering now. He would/could have made it but he's got a real attitude problem and has ****ed up his own career basiclly.

 

[Andy_S]

When i was a kid i played against Moses Ashikodi. He went on to play for Millwall, West Ham, Rangers, Watford to name a few. I think he's at Kettering now. He would/could have made it but he's got a real attitude problem and has ****ed up his own career basiclly.

He's not even at Kettering now. They released him after he stormed off down the tunnel following being substituted against Leeds. A real attitude problem is putting it lightly when talking about him.

 

[GBJ]

He's not even at Kettering now. They released him after he stormed off down the tunnel following being substituted against Leeds. A real attitude problem is putting it lightly when talking about him.

When he was a kid at Millwall, he pulled a knife on one of his team-mates after a row in training. I agree, "attitude problem" is putting it lightly

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/sport/football/football_league/article1014967.ece

 

[fbm]

As i said earlier, that is the other side of the gamble. If it pays off, everyone's a winner. Ron's made his bit, and we're in a new stadium looking to the future.
I'm not suggesting for one minute we turn down the offer/chance of a new stadium, far from it. I totally understand, and agree the new stadium is the way to go, but at the same time, we have to think about the present surely?. IF we got relegated to L2, how long would we be there? Would we ever get back out? No-one wants to see the team in that league again. We all know Eastwood was a one off and you could argue it was his goals that got us out of that league. How long will it be before we could find another gem like that?

The new stadium is a priority, but surely staying in this league is just as big, if not more of a priority? The club have come on so far from those ***** Div 3 days, do we really wanna risk going back to them? I'm not saying throw millions after players, or big names, but what is evident we can't rely on loan players.

Just say, we get 3 or 4 top quality loanees in this month. We have a brilliant rest of season and finish top half. Everyone's happy, but it's merely papering over the cracks as those decent loanees will (more than likely) be off in the summer. So the start of next season we're back to where we are now, which is the same position we've been in since Gower/Bailey left.

How long can we go on relying on loanees from season to season to keep us in this league?

When do we do it then? We've always got to think about the present. It's the stadium that will propel this club upwards - the longer we are without it, the more likely this club will hit REAL financial trouble.

 

[TheSouthendUnitedRunner]

How much of that is true though? We will never really know. I also find it very convienient that 2 players were on the verge of signing, only to duck out at the last minute due to their agents finding "better deals". It's all well and good being "linked" with these players, and "bidding" on them, but how do we know what kind of bids (if any) these were. Take Theo Robinson for a prime example. Hudderfield and Swindon were ready to shell out £200k+, so we offer £100k??? It's just so the club can turn around and say, "well we tried, and we'll keep on trying".

As i said, last season's loanees were top draw, but this season's hasn't been, which has seen us chop and change the (already decreased) team about and let's have it right, if not for Barnard, we'd almost certainly be in the thick of the relegation zone.

My point is, last season the loan ,market worked. This season so far it hasn't. If it takes us 3/4/5+ years to get into the new ground, how can we afford to put our L1 status on the line by gambling in the loan market every year? One year we won't be so successfull, and won't have a Lee Barnard to rely on and L2 will be our destination

These aren't all people that RM came out and said we was after. He mentioned Chorley in one of his blogs, and hinted at Ireikpen in another but never named him.

These where all players mentioned in the Echo. Could be true, could be a load of old rubbish, like you say we will never know.

To be fair, only one was on the verge of signing and that was Ireikpen, and depending on who you listen to he either just didn't turn up and ended up at Hamilton, or arrived at Roots Hall but got a call from his agent when he was here. As for Chorley, apparently 12 League One Clubs where after him, we had agreed terms with his agent as had Orient (Possibly other Clubs, but we know about these two). Chorley decided, for whatever reason, that Orient was the Club for him. Nothing "convienent" about that one.

 

[Homer]

As i said, i don't want to go over the "new ground size" again. This thread is about RM, but i'll respond to a few points that you made.

Swansea is almost like an "untapped" source. Cardiff and Swansea are the highest tiered teams in Wales, and most people will support one of the two. Not all, but most. So really Swans had the potential to be bigger. We have to fight against the West Hams/Chelsea/Arsenal/Spurs/Man Utd/Liverpool fans around this area. While i accept your point that many of the big clubs fans will hget ****ed off at the prices etc etc, i can't see too many giving up on their club to become a full time shrimper, week in, week out. They are more likely to be the fairweather/big game fan.

The reason i think we could end up with 3-4k is because, really that is the reality of relegation. As the form/results/League got better, the crowds rose. If we are relegated, and we return to those days of Div 3, then inevitably the crowds will die away. Don't make the naieve mistake that we could play in L2 with a 7-8k fanbase.

Unfortunately for Darlo, they have 2 big clubs in very close radius to them (similar to us) which have a combined fanbase of anywhere between 100-150k.

Bloody hell did not think Grays Athletic FC & Tilbury Town had that much support

 

[bazzashrimper]

These aren't all people that RM came out and said we was after. He mentioned Chorley in one of his blogs, and hinted at Ireikpen in another but never named him.

These where all players mentioned in the Echo. Could be true, could be a load of old rubbish, like you say we will never know.

To be fair, only one was on the verge of signing and that was Ireikpen, and depending on who you listen to he either just didn't turn up and ended up at Hamilton, or arrived at Roots Hall but got a call from his agent when he was here. As for Chorley, apparently 12 League One Clubs where after him, we had agreed terms with his agent as had Orient (Possibly other Clubs, but we know about these two). Chorley decided, for whatever reason, that Orient was the Club for him. Nothing "convienent" about that one.

This is as I remember from the AGM:

Irikepen had agreed to join and the contract was literally on a table ready to sign - everyone was waiting for him to arrive. He phoned in to say he was going to hamilton.

Chorley - we were waiting to talk to when he came back from holiday, but on his return he signed for orient without talking to any other clubs. Ron said it wasn't wages as we would easily be able to match anything Orient would offer.

 

[bazzashrimper]

RM has nothing to do with getting us up to that status. I believe it was a partnership called Tilly and Brush, coupled with a few top notch players that were bringing more fans in with their sterling performances???

I believe that Ron got a bit lucky with appointing Tilly & Brush - it was the fact they did so well as caretakers that they had to be given the job permanently. It was a no brainer for Ron - I certainly remember that he tried to give it to Adkins initially.

However, Ron has made good funds available for new players - Clarke, Bailey, Foran and Paynter were expensive signings for a club of our size. Don't get me wrong - Ron wouldn't have made these funds available had he not trusted Tilly & Brush after the good work they did with Freddy.

I also think that the optimism around the new stadium has helped the attendances - we are not seen as a dead end club as perhaps people used to see us. There is a potential progression there.

Transfers and New Stadium costs have meant that our outgoings have exceeded our income - much of this expense has been absorbed by Ron and his parent companies in the form of interest free loans to the club (which he will probably try to recoup in time). Without this security Tilly & Brush would have had no springboard to do the fantastic job they have done.

 

[CC51DAS]

If I have understood the situation correctly, certain key events are due to happen in January. A few weeks ago when the chips were down, RM was able to secure a substantial sum of money at short notice which some believe has been secured against the future stadium project.

Lets hope he is able to move with equal haste to provide T+B with some much needed funding to strengthen the squad and does not leave it so that we miss the window, which he could live to regret in the same way that he now regrets the loss of income from dropping back to League 1.

I am not doubting that running a football club is a difficult business, made all the more tricky by the recession as others have pointed out, but we have been living on these kind of implied 'promises' since well before the crash which caused the recession - for example the 'promise' that we would retain Freddy which was quickly forgotten once the season ticket renewal deadline had passed.

If he is unable to deliver on these promises, I would prefer that he does not make them. But with the final pieces of the puzzle about to fit into place, hopefully he will come up trumps. We shall soon see.

 

[turkishm]

Imo i dont think we will sign anybody,prehaps a couple of lonees on the last day in the last hour of the transfer window, and they will be players who could not find clubs. Sorry to be so downbeat, but i think our money worries are a lot worse than people think.

 

[Benfleet Blue]

Transfers and New Stadium costs have meant that our outgoings have exceeded our income.[/B]

A very valid post but I still can't understand why the club should have borne any expense relating to the new stadium. The club won't own it but will merely be tenants.

I'm still more interested in what the new stadium will bring to the club. Where are the increased income streams to come from? How will the club absorb the extra rent costs, assuming RM will not write these off as he has supposedly done in the past? Will 7,000 to 8,000 crowds in a 23,000 seater stadium enable the club to break even given the obvious additional costs?

I appreciate the club have to move, but currently fail to see how we will advance given the number of unanswered questions.

 

[grassroots]

Maybe my memory isn't what it was, but I don't recall Ron rejecting Stanley in favour of Tilly - he rejected Stan because he wanted Ian Atkins from Oxford. When Atkins turned us down, Ron was fortunate that he had a caretaker in place who immediately began to get good results.

........and more importantly at the time, T & B were desparate to get into full time management, cheap and would take a short term contract.

They have since proved to be fantastic value.

 

[grassroots]

A very valid post but I still can't understand why the club should have borne any expense relating to the new stadium. The club won't own it but will merely be tenants.

I'm still more interested in what the new stadium will bring to the club. Where are the increased income streams to come from? How will the club absorb the extra rent costs, assuming RM will not write these off as he has supposedly done in the past? Will 7,000 to 8,000 crowds in a 23,000 seater stadium enable the club to break even given the obvious additional costs?

I appreciate the club have to move, but currently fail to see how we will advance given the number of unanswered questions.

Every now and then BB, you, me and a few others, bring up the same points over again. No one yet has come up with the answers and most would prefer to rely on a blind faith that RM will come up with the goods and all will be well.
Maybe they are right and its no good beating yourself up over something we can do nothing about!!

 

[Firestorm]

A very valid post but I still can't understand why the club should have borne any expense relating to the new stadium. The club won't own it but will merely be tenants.

I'm still more interested in what the new stadium will bring to the club. Where are the increased income streams to come from? How will the club absorb the extra rent costs, assuming RM will not write these off as he has supposedly done in the past? Will 7,000 to 8,000 crowds in a 23,000 seater stadium enable the club to break even given the obvious additional costs?

I appreciate the club have to move, but currently fail to see how we will advance given the number of unanswered questions.

Personally i dont think that the Club has bourne any of the new stadium costs, there was nothing in the last published accounts to indicate this, however the cost has been bourne by one of the backers for the club, who might have used the money for the Football team.
Although I doubt they would, as they money they have is hardly "spare" ,it is an investment in their eyes , using it for the stadium is , to use the well worn phrase "speculating to accumulate" putting into a football team which with its currant infrastructure has a very low potential income ceiling is not, its throwing it away.

The money spent on the stadium is money which would not come anywhere near Roots hall (stadium or Limited) if it was not for the potential to make a return , that potential is the RH/FF development.

 

[fbm]

Every now and then BB, you, me and a few others, bring up the same points over again. No one yet has come up with the answers and most would prefer to rely on a blind faith that RM will come up with the goods and all will be well.
Maybe they are right and its no good beating yourself up over something we can do nothing about!!

You can't give an answer about something which is in the future... you can only give your hopes as to what will happen.

RM has stated various things in the past about the FF development but the fact is that for whatever reason, the people don't believe him or want details to the nth degree which, to be fair, if they find his blogs hard to understand they wouldn't have a cat in hells chance of grasping so would be none the wiser.

The reason I am happy to have the faith is this:

1) He has invested millions into this club and has also written off millions, He would not do this unless he thought he would get it back.

2) The future of football finance does not revolve around several thousand people attending a match at a stadium 23 times a season. Other sources of funding have to be found and these will come from various places and so there will not be the need to rely on gate receipts. Sadly these sources will not be popular and may mean that teams will be changing names frequently (a la American football) and shirts will look more like F1 racing cars with adverts all over them. I do not like this, nor do I understand it, but it is probably the way the game will have to go to survive unless we all want to pay about £50 each to watch a game. RM obviously does understand this and I would imagine that these sources of income is how he will recoup the money he has already laid out or written off.

3) He has no long term desire to be a club chairman and is simply getting the club into as good a shape as he can so he can sell it. For him to sell it for decent money the club has to be profitable and in good shape. Therefore for him to benefit we benefit as well. Win-win.

4) Consider the consortium. They were made up, so we understand, of 9 local businessmen and I think 5 were season ticket holders. We were told there was no agenda other than the well being of our club. So, I'm wondering why the non season ticket holders were involved. What's in it for them? One answer - money. My guess is that THEY were the ones with the real wealth and by taking the club over there would be a massive return to be made in the future. They obviously understand it far more than I do and I'm happy that, whilst there was a clamour of interest to rescue our club from potentially imminent administration (and there was) with a sum of money in excess of £150m there must be one nice pot of gold at the end of this particular rainbow.

All in all, the future does look rosy.

Of course, there are various reasons why it may not happen and it all may come crashing down.

But if we didn't have the new stadium in the offing, we may well have already gone into administration by now and would have nothing to look forward to. The future in that case would be bleak.

So, my faith is there - it's not blind faith, it's faith based on the above premises and the prospect that we will have jam tomorrow.

 

[grassroots]

You can't give an answer about something which is in the future... you can only give your hopes as to what will happen.

RM has stated various things in the past about the FF development but the fact is that for whatever reason, the people don't believe him or want details to the nth degree which, to be fair, if they find his blogs hard to understand they wouldn't have a cat in hells chance of grasping so would be none the wiser.

The reason I am happy to have the faith is this:

1) He has invested millions into this club and has also written off millions, He would not do this unless he thought he would get it back.

2) The future of football finance does not revolve around several thousand people attending a match at a stadium 23 times a season. Other sources of funding have to be found and these will come from various places and so there will not be the need to rely on gate receipts. Sadly these sources will not be popular and may mean that teams will be changing names frequently (a la American football) and shirts will look more like F1 racing cars with adverts all over them. I do not like this, nor do I understand it, but it is probably the way the game will have to go to survive unless we all want to pay about £50 each to watch a game. RM obviously does understand this and I would imagine that these sources of income is how he will recoup the money he has already laid out or written off.

3) He has no long term desire to be a club chairman and is simply getting the club into as good a shape as he can so he can sell it. For him to sell it for decent money the club has to be profitable and in good shape. Therefore for him to benefit we benefit as well. Win-win.

4) Consider the consortium. They were made up, so we understand, of 9 local businessmen and I think 5 were season ticket holders. We were told there was no agenda other than the well being of our club. So, I'm wondering why the non season ticket holders were involved. What's in it for them? One answer - money. My guess is that THEY were the ones with the real wealth and by taking the club over there would be a massive return to be made in the future. They obviously understand it far more than I do and I'm happy that, whilst there was a clamour of interest to rescue our club from potentially imminent administration (and there was) with a sum of money in excess of £150m there must be one nice pot of gold at the end of this particular rainbow.

All in all, the future does look rosy.

Of course, there are various reasons why it may not happen and it all may come crashing down.

But if we didn't have the new stadium in the offing, we may well have already gone into administration by now and would have nothing to look forward to. The future in that case would be bleak.

So, my faith is there - it's not blind faith, it's faith based on the above premises and the prospect that we will have jam tomorrow.

We are obviously in two immovable camps, but with a common cause - the well being of the Blues. I have never thought of RM as 'our saviour' and the 'if it wasnt for him' argument, because the sheer value of the Roots Hall/Boots and Laces package would have been too attractive to ignore and we will never know who would have turned up.

RM is first and foremost a property developer and they will rarely use their own money, so I dont altogether agree with your first point.

The way I see it is that initially RM & Co. saw an ailing, dying football club, with an abundance of potential development land. The idea was to move away from Roots Hall to a modest little ground at Boots and Laces and as the Blues were in danger of slipping into the Conference, a 6,500 capacity would have done nicely - with a fat profit for the developer.

In 2003/04, the Blues are 23rd in the 3rd Div and plummeting like a stone and showing no signs of recovery. A cup tie v Canvey bought fear, with Geoff King talking of the two clubs swapping places in the Leagues. Against the odds, the Blues manage to pull off a 'surprise' win following a draw at Roots Hall. T & B are announced as caretaker managers, who 4 months later, get the team to the Millennium Stadium - RM's eyes sparkle at the tremendous following and reflected adulation he receives and starts planning a much more adventurous move. The rest is history.......and still more in the future.

 

[C'mon you Shrimpers]

The way I see it is that initially RM & Co. saw an ailing, dying football club, with an abundance of potential development land. The idea was to move away from Roots Hall to a modest little ground at Boots and Laces and as the Blues were in danger of slipping into the Conference, a 6,500 capacity would have done nicely - with a fat profit for the developer.

.

The only flaw in your argument is you've no evidence to support this assumption whatsoever. Never did Delancey or Ron speak of this modest little ground. The plans are for a 22,000 stadium passed a few years ago.
Blimey he gets criticsied for too big a ground and now he was virtually blown along by circumstance into building a bigger ground than intended. If this all turns out OK and we get the new ground I bet there will be fans sitting there at the first game Discussing it's too big, too small, too much concrete, too much steel, not enough paint, no onions in the burgers, no chips, grass is too long, wish we were back at Roots Hall, what's the point, I told you it'd never be built and then rushing on to Shrimpermoan to complain.

 

[GBJ]

Bloody hell did not think Grays Athletic FC & Tilbury Town had that much support

 

[Crabby Shrimper]

Swansea is almost like an "untapped" source. Cardiff and Swansea are the highest tiered teams in Wales, and most people will support one of the two. Not all, but most. So really Swans had the potential to be bigger. We have to fight against the West Hams/Chelsea/Arsenal/Spurs/Man Utd/Liverpool fans around this area. While i accept your point that many of the big clubs fans will hget ****ed off at the prices etc etc, i can't see too many giving up on their club to become a full time shrimper, week in, week out. They are more likely to be the fairweather/big game fan.

The reason i think we could end up with 3-4k is because, really that is the reality of relegation. As the form/results/League got better, the crowds rose. If we are relegated, and we return to those days of Div 3, then inevitably the crowds will die away. Don't make the naieve mistake that we could play in L2 with a 7-8k fanbase.

Unfortunately for Darlo, they have 2 big clubs in very close radius to them (similar to us) which have a combined fanbase of anywhere between 100-150k.

Got to pull you up on this. Most people in Wales will either "support" a prem team, or stick to Rugby. A lot of people in Swansea are fans of the Swans, but often as a second team, or just to look out for results. The attendances have been up, and thats a combination of the side doing well, and a much nicer stadium. You do have to understand though that in Swansea Football is a second sport to Rugby.

Going back briefly to the stadium size, yes, if we get relegated the ground will look empty, but relegation isn't neccessarily for life. What if we get promoted again? Maybe end up back in the Championship, and in a new stadium? If we want this club to grow, then it makes sense to lay the foundations now, rather than have to redevelop the ground in a few years.