Question Would you delay renewing next season?

[RHB]

Post now deleted... sick of this cryptic bs if theres nothing definite to say dont say it

 

[nevereatwhitesnow]

OK the club is in fact a cash cow, a magic money tree that enables Ron to syphon off cash into his other businesses. So obvious really...

The NL clubs you mention have owners putting money in - the average is about £1m for clubs in our league. Our shortfall is £2m a year.

Our average ticket price isn't £18. Under 6s pay £3, 6-17 year olds pay £8, over 60s £13, 17-22 year olds £13, other concessions (emergency services etc. £13). We may get in reality more like £1m more a year but the stadium costs £300k to keep open, our squad is too large and we are over budget, our overheads are still to high a typical legacy of having been in the EFL and still wanting to be an EFL club.

Unfortunately our last accounts were for the 2019 season. More generally its difficult to get accounts showing operating profit and loss for many lower division clubs. Net profit and loss is distorted by all sorts of things like player sales, stadium/asset sales. And owners putting in cash not as loans but as shareholder funds or other "sponsorship".

But lets take 2019.

In L1 most clubs lost money and interestingly there is little correlation between the clubs attendances and the size of the loss. Indeed if anything clubs with bigger attendances had bigger losses. We were 8th in the loss table.

https://i0.wp.com/priceoffootball.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/10/word-image-1.png?w=867&ssl=1

Now there were 4 clubs who made meaningful profits. Of course to what extent asset sales or player sales contributed or other "below the line" impacts is difficult to see.

But if we look at the Championship where more detailed accounts are available. We see 6 clubs made a profit

https://i0.wp.com/priceoffootball.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/10/word-image.png?w=992&ssl=1

But if we strip out the below the line stuff we see that only one club out of the entire division made a tiny profit- Rotherham (who probably also had amongst the smallest gates).

So nearly all football clubs lose money. And at NL level the typical club owner puts in £1m a year. Unfortunately at smaller club level the accounts are just not available/granular enough to work out why we are losing X or Y more than another club.

But we are losing money just like virtually every club in this wonderful industry. So the idea that somehow the club is so well run, a relative paragon of efficiency, that it is bucking all that and making loads of money for Ron to syphon off just does not fly.

But in SM whether something is true or not has no currency, all that maters is wanting to believe that its true. And if you want to believe its true there are always alternative facts that make it so...which means this argument will never end and like Groundhog Day it will go on..I doubt even up to date accounts will make the theory go away. Because the accounts wont be believed.

All of that is lovely but most of the costs in a football club are fixed (rents, staff, utilities etc) and when an owner sets budget each season it’s comparatively simple to determine your likely income (you may or may not want to budget a cup run, range of gate receipts and potentially players sales income) and then look at outgoings, set a playing budget (salary and maybe fees) and then work out if that will give you an outcome you want, if not there are couple of choices, increase income (either by way of owner subsidy or pushing for increases in gate receipts) OR reduce expenditure.

This is effectively a very simple process that Ron largely seems incapable of doing over a sustained period (could be attributed to legacy debts, financial mismanagement, over ambition or just incompetence) whereas many other clubs seemingly make a better job of with lesser income.

 

[Supa Shrimpa]

Surely, fans are entitled to know which division we're playing in first and whether we still have a sustainable club before they part with their hard earned money ?

 

[Target man]

When does the survey end? Assuming the poll results are then presented to Ron and a deadline is given to him to give clarity on requested information before supporters groups suggest to members to start renewing?

If he doesn't budge, to what extent can the Trust request for transparent information according to the Freedom of information act? Not sure if this act extends to financial information? @Napster - are you aware of this?

 

[kentblues]

All of that is lovely but most of the costs in a football club are fixed (rents, staff, utilities etc) and when an owner sets budget each season it’s comparatively simple to determine your likely income (you may or may not want to budget a cup run, range of gate receipts and potentially players sales income) and then look at outgoings, set a playing budget (salary and maybe fees) and then work out if that will give you an outcome you want, if not there are couple of choices, increase income (either by way of owner subsidy or pushing for increases in gate receipts) OR reduce expenditure.

This is effectively a very simple process that Ron largely seems incapable of doing over a sustained period (could be attributed to legacy debts, financial mismanagement, over ambition or just incompetence) whereas many other clubs seemingly make a better job of with lesser income.

Many do, many don't, none of which changes in anyway the underlying point.
Your clubs last accounts show a loss of £2.6m and total net liabilities of over £28m. No doubt a very well run club, but highlighting that clubs dont make money in L2 either and thats with the EFL money..

 

[Napster]

When does the survey end? Assuming the poll results are then presented to Ron and a deadline is given to him to give clarity on requested information before supporters groups suggest to members to start renewing?

If he doesn't budge, to what extent can the Trust request for transparent information according to the Freedom of information act? Not sure if this act extends to financial information? @Napster - are you aware of this?

The FOI Act only applies to public authorities sadly.

 

[Target man]

The FOI Act only applies to public authorities sadly.

Yea I thought that was the case, wondered if there were any loopholes at all. Shame as this act would have been perfect to draw questions. So really we are only relying on him to drop his arrogance and respond. If he does remain silent, in some ways, the silence tells you what you need to know.

 

[Napster]

Yea I thought that was the case, wondered if there were any loopholes at all. Shame as this act would have been perfect to draw questions. So really we are only relying on him to drop his arrogance and respond. If he does remain silent, in some ways, the silence tells you what you need to know.

Incoming at 3

 

[Target man]

Incoming at 3

Intreagued now. Well this does break the silence, but let's hope it's not more BS and lies. Hopefully news of a decent takeover, though we don't want his son taking over. The Martin's will never be trusted....

 

[nevereatwhitesnow]

Many do, many don't, none of which changes in anyway the underlying point.
Your clubs last accounts show a loss of £2.6m and total net liabilities of over £28m. No doubt a very well run club, but highlighting that clubs dont make money in L2 either and thats with the EFL money..

But that’s a very different point, the chairman at many clubs (including Colchester) set a budget based on income and expenditure and include the subsidy they are will to invest (either as formal debt or cash injection/shares)

The problem is that it’s odd that Ron can’t somewhat balance the books given SUFC income from very good attendances and seemingly paltry investment in the upkeep of Roots Hall. He sets the budget each year, you’ve not suffered from a drop in crowds or increased funding in RH, so how does he continue to get this so badly wrong and leave staff and the taxman waiting for what is legally and contractually due? Negligence? Arrogance? Or perhaps something more manipulate? Remember this man stands (hopes) to make a muti million personal fortune on the back of his association with SUFC, something’s not been right for some time and the accountants seem less and less keen to sign off the accounts, one might question why that might be eh?! (Well some might, others choose not to ask the questions)

 

[kentblues]

But that’s a very different point, the chairman at many clubs (including Colchester) set a budget based on income and expenditure and include the subsidy they are will to invest (either as formal debt or cash injection/shares)

The problem is that it’s odd that Ron can’t somewhat balance the books given SUFC income from very good attendances and seemingly paltry investment in the upkeep of Roots Hall. He sets the budget each year, you’ve not suffered from a drop in crowds or increased funding in RH, so how does he continue to get this so badly wrong and leave staff and the taxman waiting for what is legally and contractually due? Negligence? Arrogance? Or perhaps something more manipulate? Remember this man stands (hopes) to make a muti million personal fortune on the back of his association with SUFC, something’s not been right for some time and the accountants seem less and less keen to sign off the accounts, one might question why that might be eh?! (Well some might, others choose not to ask the questions)

I have already posted the details on football club profitability (or rather lossability). So the idea that we almost uniquely will be balancing the books given successive relegations is fanciful. Especially having lost the EFL money and still with an overhead hangover from the EFL days.

The problem is that after 20+ years of owning a football club he ran out of money- he wasn't rich enough.... Your owner loses as much money even with EFL payments, and the club debt is greater than ours. By your argument the real achievement is he budgets to loses loads of money and does. His real achievement is that he still has very deep pockets. That's when you boil it all down the difference.

 

[Murkey_Mouse]

I think it’s played an part in RM wanting to sell up.

 

[nevereatwhitesnow]

I have already posted the details on football club profitability (or rather lossability). So the idea that we almost uniquely will be balancing the books given successive relegations is fanciful. Especially having lost the EFL money and still with an overhead hangover from the EFL days.

The problem is that after 20+ years of owning a football club he ran out of money- he wasn't rich enough.... Your owner loses as much money even with EFL payments, and the club debt is greater than ours. By your argument the real achievement is he budgets to loses loads of money and does. His real achievement is that he still has very deep pockets. That's when you boil it all down the difference.

I agree on many points, in that Col U as a business, like many clubs is flawed, we lose money, we are lucky to have a rich benefactor. Strangely though, and here is the rub, circumstances mean he’s probably going to be selling the training ground and building a new one which will enable him to build a big housing estate in Tiptree that will probably actually make him enough money to clear most (maybe more) of any debts.

Our owner who isn’t a property developer is suddenly going to become a fairly good one which further benefits the club whereas yours has been trying and failing whilst dragging your club’s reputation through the mud. Motive and competence seem to be as important a commodity as cash!

I just hope he gets out of your club before it’s too late, with or without his payday your club deserves better, a lot better. At the moment you are getting lies, obstruction, incompetence and misery, that’s all directly and solely down to the owner. Those that continue to make excuses become part of the problem rather than the solution

 

[leeblue]

Surely this now flips, let's get season ticket sales flying to help potential investors see a big positive

 

[Target man]

Surely this now flips, let's get season ticket sales flying to help potential investors see a big positive

Season cards has nothing to do with attracting investors

 

[Willis]

Nothing changes for me… I’m still delaying. When club is sold I’ll buy my season tickets quicker than RM can dry his bouffant

 

[GDM]

Surely this now flips, let's get season ticket sales flying to help potential investors see a big positive

What's actually changed from 2:59 today?

 

[Cricko]

What's actually changed from 2:59 today?

Nothing IMO.

 

[Somerset Ex-TTB]

OK the club is in fact a cash cow, a magic money tree that enables Ron to syphon off cash into his other businesses. So obvious really...

The NL clubs you mention have owners putting money in - the average is about £1m for clubs in our league. Our shortfall is £2m a year.

Our average ticket price isn't £18. Under 6s pay £3, 6-17 year olds pay £8, over 60s £13, 17-22 year olds £13, other concessions (emergency services etc. £13). We may get in reality more like £1m more a year but the stadium costs £300k to keep open, our squad is too large and we are over budget, our overheads are still to high a typical legacy of having been in the EFL and still wanting to be an EFL club.

Unfortunately our last accounts were for the 2019 season. More generally its difficult to get accounts showing operating profit and loss for many lower division clubs. Net profit and loss is distorted by all sorts of things like player sales, stadium/asset sales. And owners putting in cash not as loans but as shareholder funds or other "sponsorship".

But lets take 2019.

In L1 most clubs lost money and interestingly there is little correlation between the clubs attendances and the size of the loss. Indeed if anything clubs with bigger attendances had bigger losses. We were 8th in the loss table.

https://i0.wp.com/priceoffootball.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/10/word-image-1.png?w=867&ssl=1

Now there were 4 clubs who made meaningful profits. Of course to what extent asset sales or player sales contributed or other "below the line" impacts is difficult to see.

But if we look at the Championship where more detailed accounts are available. We see 6 clubs made a profit

https://i0.wp.com/priceoffootball.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/10/word-image.png?w=992&ssl=1

But if we strip out the below the line stuff we see that only one club out of the entire division made a tiny profit- Rotherham (who probably also had amongst the smallest gates).

So nearly all football clubs lose money. And at NL level the typical club owner puts in £1m a year. Unfortunately at smaller club level the accounts are just not available/granular enough to work out why we are losing X or Y more than another club.

But we are losing money just like virtually every club in this wonderful industry. So the idea that somehow the club is so well run, a relative paragon of efficiency, that it is bucking all that and making loads of money for Ron to syphon off just does not fly.

But in SM whether something is true or not has no currency, all that maters is wanting to believe that its true. And if you want to believe its true there are always alternative facts that make it so...which means this argument will never end and like Groundhog Day it will go on..I doubt even up to date accounts will make the theory go away. Because the accounts wont be believed.

I never said we should be making a profit! Do you really think that £300k is spent every year on Roots Hall? FFS! I could do a better job as a handy man for £100k a year doing stuff full time, and I am not a handy man!

Yes we get other income, and have other expenses, but the club is so badly run that there are expenses that are wasteful. How much have we paid over the years on solicitors, fines, interest on late payments, legal fees. Probably runs into 7 figures.

I did say that my maths were rough, and yes I know that not all ticket prices are at full price, but neither are the other clubs.

Yuu even say our shortfall is £2m a year, and other clubs, with possibly £1m-£2m less revenue have owners putting in £1m

That means we are spending at least £2m a season more than them? How, what on?

 

[BoyWonder2]

One of the things people demanded was an exit strategy from RM. Surely, this is it?

Has this news changed anyone who was delaying their season ticket mind at all?