Relegation appeal

[kentblues]

I understand the argument that the league rules were changed (there was nothing in the rules about how a season would be determined if all the matches in a division weren't completed, so the clubs had to vote on that in order for unweighted points per game to be applied), but this season the top five divisions in the pyramid are being completed, so there's no reason for anything to be voted and determined in the tortuous process you have outlined.

We've been relegated, as you say, deservedly, on the basis of a 46-game season. And whoever replaces us will have been promoted, deservedly, either automatically or via the play-offs, on the basis of a 42-game season being completed (it would have been 44 games, but Dover withdrew from the competition and their results were expunged).

That is promotion and relegation protecting the integrity outlined by the EFL last season, largely in an argument to ensure that the leading Championship clubs could earn promotion to the Premier League, because if they had not been promoted, then they would - unlike us and Grimsby, presumably - have had the finances to fund a legal protest.

Per my last post the situation between the Prem and EFL is the same as between the EFL and NL. For Championship read NL. NL league intend to have promotions and no relegation. Prem and EFL were very clear last year regarding that scenario and what it meant.

Its nothing to do with fair, not even saying it should happen, but if the EFL are consistent its what the outcome would be. The EFL muted the Prem expanding for one season, so presumably they would be open to L2 doing the same when the boot is on the other foot. Which I believe is at the nub of what Grimsby are proposing. Bear in mind its their proposal (we are giving our support but then why wouldn't we)

 

[Mad Cyril]

I'm struggling to see how mounting a legal challenge that has zero chance of working isn't humiliation, if it was any other club you'd be laughing at how tinpot they were for trying it. If we had a case it'd be different but we don't.

I'm not saying it isn't humiliating but it certainly isn't the most humiliating thing that has happened.

 

[Fairport]

The efforts by us and Grimsby are in poor taste and does our reputation no good. If anything last season would have been more appropriate to challenge relegation since not all the fixtures were completed. Tranmere in particular were hard done by.

 

[Exiled Shrimper]

The very reason the EFL had to retrospectively change their rules last year was to allow seasons to be completed via points per game. You will recall relegation and promotion could only take place under the rules if seasons were complete (defined as all fixtures having been fulfilled). Therefore all divisions were ultimately complete last year also.

The relevant argument from last year is about there having to be relegations in the EFL else the Prem would not relegate either- and the Prem clubs were unwilling to accept an expansion of the Prem for one season as a muted solution. For Prem/EFL read EFL/NL if the same arguments used by the EFL (and Prem) last year are to be applied.

And of course the NLN/S were not completed due to Covid.

Don't get me wrong- I am not saying for one second we deserve a reprieve. I'm just saying that is very different from not accepting we have a case. Two different arguments.

I think the issue last year was less about relegations in the EFL and more about promotions. The EFL made the argument about promotions and relegations, linking it to integrity, because they wanted to be able to promote clubs from the Championship, not because they wanted to relegate clubs from League Two.

Indeed, the EFL said they wanted to be sure the National League would be in a place to begin 2020/21 in a timely fashion before agreeing to relegation; if that’s the argument Grimsby, supported by us, are presenting for 2021/22, then that may have more tract, given the problems they have experienced in completing this season and the financial difficulties suffered by some clubs.

The suggestion of no relegation, like this season, came from the affected clubs, whether that was those in danger of relegation from the Premier League, or Tranmere Rovers, who could argue unweighted points per game was unfair, Barnsley - who also submitted a proposal - or League Two clubs, who voted for no relegation (sound familiar) and were denied by the EFL Board. That’s different to the National League this season, where it wasn’t possible to promote from National League North/South as they hadn’t completed an appropriate amount of fixtures, leading to no relegation as a consequence.

The EFL didn’t, to my knowledge, propose that there should be no relegation, which is where I believe the current argument relating to our predicament is flawed. They argued for relegation, even into a league which, in it’s lower divisions (North and South) they knew wouldn’t have it because the divisions below had been declared null and void.

 

[sufc4life21]

I think both clubs are clutching. No mention at anytime of this season their was talk of no relegation. The fact national league ploughed on has shown their intent to keep the promotion and relegation scenario.

I guess its worth a try, but can't see any other outcome for sufc than national league football.

 

[kentblues]

I think the issue last year was less about relegations in the EFL and more about promotions. The EFL made the argument about promotions and relegations, linking it to integrity, because they wanted to be able to promote clubs from the Championship, not because they wanted to relegate clubs from League Two.

Indeed, the EFL said they wanted to be sure the National League would be in a place to begin 2020/21 on time before agreeing to relegation; if that’s the argument Grimsby, supported by us, are presenting for 2021/22, then that may have more tract, given the problems they have experienced in completing this season and the financial difficulties suffered by some clubs.

The suggestion of no relegation, like this season, came from the affected clubs, whether that was those in danger of relegation from the Premier League, or Tranmere Rovers, who could argue unweighted points per game was unfair, Barnsley - who also submitted a proposal - or League Two clubs, who voted for no relegation (sound familiar) and were denied by the EFL Board.

The EFL didn’t, to my knowledge, propose that there should be no relegation, which is where I believe the current argument relating to our predicament is flawed.

No exactly the EFL didn’t support no relegation- to the contrary they indeed said relegation must happen as well as promotion. And if relegation didn’t happen it could undermine promotion from the Championship to the Prem. In the NL this year there is currently promotion but no relegation, in terms of the EFL’s argument in relation to last year for Prem read EFL and for EFL read NL. That the nub of the case I think.

Some EFL clubs indeed suggested expanded divisions as a solution if there were no relegation (you will recall promotions but no relegations in each division, I seem to remember in line with a German proposal) and the EFL raised it with the Prem. Don’t believe the EFL ever supported it as such and the Prem clubs/Prem were against

 

[Exiled Shrimper]

No exactly the EFL didn’t support no relegation- to the contrary they indeed said relegation must happen as well as promotion. And if relegation didn’t happen it could undermine promotion from the Championship to the Prem. In the NL this year there is currently promotion but no relegation, in terms of the EFL’s argument in relation to last year for Prem read EFL and for EFL read NL. That the nub of the case I think.

Some EFL clubs indeed suggested expanded divisions as a solution if there were no relegation (you will recall promotions but no relegations in each division, I seem to remember in line with a German proposal) and the EFL raised it with the Prem. Don’t believe the EFL ever supported it as such and the Prem clubs/Prem were against

I was re-reading my post, and had just added a final thought, which I’ll include here: The EFL argued for relegation, even into a competition which, in it’s lower divisions (North and South) they knew wouldn’t have it because the divisions below had been declared null and void.

I think any argument about the integrity of the National League this season is very flimsy (by the clubs, not you), but it’s been an interesting discussion. My personal opinion is that it’s a waste of time contesting it and we should be concentrating on how we are going to cope in the National League, but we shall have to see how it plays out.

 

[kentblues]

I was re-reading my post, and had just added a final thought, which I’ll include here: The EFL argued for relegation, even into a competition which, in it’s lower divisions (North and South) they knew wouldn’t have it because the divisions below had been declared null and void.

I think any argument about the integrity of the National League this season is very flimsy (by the clubs, not you), but it’s been an interesting discussion. My personal opinion is that it’s a waste of time contesting it and we should be concentrating on how we are going to cope in the National League, but we shall have to see how it plays out.

Re The EFL argued for relegation, even into a competition which, in it’s lower divisions (North and South) they knew wouldn’t have it because the divisions below had been declared null and void.
I think the difference is that here the EFL are suggesting relegation into the very division we’re there would be no relegation (rather than lower divisions in the pyramid)
That said I agree with your personal opinion on it (even though with exasperation I realise there is a very arguable case)

 

[Boreham Blue]

Anyone got an idea what the process is from here?

 

[Jai]

So embarrassing. As if we haven't been embarrassed enough this season. Just accept it.

 

[Hegman]

Why dont Ron just write a letter into the FA demanding to be put in the Championship. We supposedly are a big club after all and he has done a great job saving us for years and years. Performances on the pitch and results shouldn't weigh more than his opinion do they?

 

[Andyhsufc]

I think it is a fair question to ask - no doubt we deserve to go down based on performance but at the end of the day the minute NL scrapped relegation, the league lost its integrity as a lot of the clubs in that league had nothing to play for.

 

[Trucking shrimper]

If this was successful and we stayed in league 2, the rest of the football league would probably view our league status was as about as legitimate as we all felt MK Dons league place was, and rightly so.

Its the football equivalent of letting a serial criminal off all charges in court due to a “technicality”.

 

[londonblue]

So every supporter on here wants to have a big hug with the Torquay usurper and surrender with our tails between our legs? I think you’re mistaken. I’ve supported Southend for 41 years, man and boy, so with regards to your last point, you can kindly go and **** yourself. Mate.

Calm down Rusty. Have you been reading, or just assuming?

 

[rigsby]

It probably won’t be us anyway. The point isn’t that anyone likes relegation, but if happens & it’s how you react to it that matters. This is just a frivolous & pathetic attempt to get out of the fate your club deserves. Just like we deserved the relegations we’ve had

You started off OK but now your showing your true self. Well spotted Patch.

Our team have been such a soft touch for 3 seasons, teams know they can dish it our at RH with no fear. Seems the Zone is following in their shadow. We even have a troll from Col U allowed to insult other posters on here and s*** stir on the Stan and Ron threads.

As for relegation, Im not actually bothered because i will still be having a weekender or 2. Don't care if its Barrow or Torquay, I have places to stay near both towns.

This seasons embargo wasn't self inflicted. Yep we got in trouble with paying of players and staff during the disastrous 19/20 season but we have always relied on the Summer seaso sales to recover.

Under the Covid rules the money from the sale of season tickets wasn't released. So you can argue the point that Covid put us in the bottom 2 and if it therefore saves us then so what.

 

[E for B and Billy Best]

Ron is embarrassing himself....again.
Ron is embarrassing our SUFC....again.
Losing our league status has nothing to do with how the National League has run itself this season, but has all to do with how Ron has run our club this (and previous) seasons.
Own it Ron it's all down to you.

 

[Gull1899]

I think it is a fair question to ask - no doubt we deserve to go down based on performance but at the end of the day the minute NL scrapped relegation, the league lost its integrity as a lot of the clubs in that league had nothing to play for.

Nope. No integrity of the league has been lost. It’s still very competitive & in the midst of a pandemic it should be applauded how well it’s carried on. The league has gone on very well in difficult circumstances with no teams giving up or distorting the league - Could you say the same for when you had an embargo? Every season you can say that a league has been distorted , teams having injuries at different moments to other teams, buying players at different times so teams facing different strength of squads.

The only integrity being lost here is by yourselves & Grimbsy trying to weasel yourselves out of a deserved relegation

 

[TrueBlue]

What I think was pathetic is last season we were not mathematically down and we still went down why did we not kick up a fuss then? That could have brought us an extra season to get this club in order. In fact last season NOBODY was mathematically promoted or relegated and the season should have been void

 

[Barling Magna]

The league has gone on very well in difficult circumstances with no teams giving up or distorting the league.

Surely Dover gave up.....? I agree that Barnet have fought back well in the past half a dozen games but to have only six wins and 24 defeats with a goal difference of minus 48 suggests a very different performance from them this season compared to last year when they finished eleventh. They had virtually given up hadn't they?

Mind you, I agree with the final sentence of your post.

 

[Andyhsufc]

Nope. No integrity of the league has been lost. It’s still very competitive & in the midst of a pandemic it should be applauded how well it’s carried on. The league has gone on very well in difficult circumstances with no teams giving up or distorting the league - Could you say the same for when you had an embargo? Every season you can say that a league has been distorted , teams having injuries at different moments to other teams, buying players at different times so teams facing different strength of squads.

The only integrity being lost here is by yourselves & Grimbsy trying to weasel yourselves out of a deserved relegation

I am not disagreeing that we deserve to go down but clearly the league has been distorted with clubs furloughing players and even cutting their spending so they can spend more money next season. A league where clubs know they are not going to be relegated regardless of result is not a competitive league.