Should corporal punishishment return?

[londonblue]

Or if one child who has been caned sees it as an example that Violence is the answer....it has failed.

GB himself being a prime example. He had the granny kicked out of him, and sees nothing wrong with doing the same.

 

[londonblue]

Yes I did, sorry - must have had computers on the brain, most unlike me to make such a basic mistake!

I did touch on drawing the line in one of my posts - not a clue which as there's been so many - but basically, for schools drawing the line should be when the student has reached a certain number of "canings". If we're going to use caning as an "ultimate" punishment, then the theory would be their behaviour has already gone past the traditional detention/missing lunch or morning break times/letters home type stages, so therefore, to me, you'd have something along the 3 strikes and you're out basis. That doesn't mean the caning gets harder so you end up thrashing them, but if the student has been sent for the cane three times, then they go to the pupil referral unit. If they then return and repeat behaviour occurs, then they have to face expulsion or "permanent exclusion", as it seems to be called these days.

That's maybe a little simplistic, but as a work in progress, that's how I'd envisage it operating.

In that case I think you need to think about it a bit more. The ultimate punishment, and last resort is used three times. How does that work then?

 

[graysblue]

GB himself being a prime example. He had the granny kicked out of him, and sees nothing wrong with doing the same.

very good and very devious reply

 

[Benfleet A1]

As an ex King John Old Boy I've heard it described as many things, but never about manners, although the old Head Fritz could lay it on with the cane if you transgressed. I found that where he was concerned disctretion was definitely the better part of valour.

There's a name I haven't heard in many a year. My half brother had the snot knocked out of him by Fritz. Was that back in the days of John Garton who was teaching there? Don't suppose you remember a John Walden from those days do you. It was his said snot that was extracted.

 

[steveo]

I think you need some parenting skills.

I don’t agree. I think you need to read peoples post properly before making your rubbish remarks.

I also don’t agree, because I have two grown up children, neither of whom has been in any sort of trouble with the law, and didn’t get into any bad trouble at school.

Please let us know how many children you have and how old they are.

 

[Einstein]

I don’t agree. I think you need to read peoples post properly before making your rubbish remarks.

I also don’t agree, because I have two grown up children, neither of whom has been in any sort of trouble with the law, and didn’t get into any bad trouble at school.

Please let us know how many children you have and how old they are.

I wish the SZ voting could be developed a little more. (Are you listening SBH?!)

Judging from previous comments I personally believe I see a particular pattern. (Obviously there are exceptions before someone pipes up!)

Aged 40 and up - believe in the cane & smacking. Worked for them and their grown up/adult children.
Aged (very roughly) 30 to 40 - Those currently with young children firmly against it.
Aged 20 to 30 - sick of problems in the world today and believe something needs to be done.
Aged under 20 - Currently against, but I personally believe will change their views in a number of years.

Therefore it is my belief that we currently have a new generation of thinkers coming through....

 

[Firestorm]

I am 40 + and have grown up Children, i don't agree with the cane at school and I hardly smacked my kids either (and when i did I really hated my self for losing my control so much that I had to resort violence to express my self to a child)

 

[Pubey]

I wish the SZ voting could be developed a little more. (Are you listening SBH?!)

Judging from previous comments I personally believe I see a particular pattern. (Obviously there are exceptions before someone pipes up!)

Aged 40 and up - believe in the cane & smacking. Worked for them and their grown up/adult children.
Aged (very roughly) 30 to 40 - Those currently with young children firmly against it.
Aged 20 to 30 - sick of problems in the world today and believe something needs to be done.
Aged under 20 - Currently against, but I personally believe will change their views in a number of years.

Therefore it is my belief that we currently have a new generation of thinkers coming through....

I agree with that, there is obviously a generational and historical stratification regarding this issue, although it's isn't black and white and I don't want to tar everyone with the same brush. However it's fairly understandable why. People tend to develop their views and opinions through their experiences and the environment and people they socialise with. Older parents will tend to agree with the cane because they may have been caned, or witnessed it... they may have struck their children and they probably aren't going to see this as ineffective, at least no one will admit to being a bad parent! Younger people haven't been caned, have grown up in a time where any physical violence or manhandling is likely to see a lawsuit. also the lack of effective punishments have seen children really push the boundaries in schools... i have a few mates who are young teachers and some of the stories are shocking, and i though we got up to mischief a few years ago at school!

However I don't agree that just because the older generation were caned, or believe in it, or have *experience*, that their views somehow trump everyone else. It comes over as trite and dismissive, soon the majority of our working population won't have grown up in the 'cane generation' and that has probably begun to show in the backlash against smacking/corporal punishment.

I also don't believe that you have to work with children or in education to somehow hold some superior view, you may believe that you are some expert, but your *expert* view should not be used to give you the right to potentially hit my, or any, child. Even if the government approved caning, I would see this as assault on my child and look to prosecute. I personally think it comes down to a human rights issue, and that we should be looking for effective punishments that don't resort to violence. We need to equip our teachers and schools with punishments and effective deterrents which allow them to teach, not babysit... and allowing either violence/bodily harm in the classroom or in a headmasters office is not the answer. It was abolished for a reason, and I'm dead against people seeing violence as an effective means of controlling childrens behaviour.

 

[londonblue]

I don’t agree. I think you need to read peoples post properly before making your rubbish remarks.

I also don’t agree, because I have two grown up children, neither of whom has been in any sort of trouble with the law, and didn’t get into any bad trouble at school.

Please let us know how many children you have and how old they are.

It's not about how many kids we've all got/had etc. It's about how do we discipline them.

Do me a favour, and have a word with my brother in law. He has two kids who are very well behaved, and have never been hit. When one of them does something wrong they are disciplined and told that their behaviour is unacceptable, they lose privileges and learn the hard way. Yes it's time consuming, but to belittle him like you did and assume all he would ever do is tell them to stop it is quite frankly insulting.

 

[toellandback]

I wish the SZ voting could be developed a little more. (Are you listening SBH?!)

Judging from previous comments I personally believe I see a particular pattern. (Obviously there are exceptions before someone pipes up!)

Aged 40 and up - believe in the cane & smacking. Worked for them and their grown up/adult children.
Aged (very roughly) 30 to 40 - Those currently with young children firmly against it.
Aged 20 to 30 - sick of problems in the world today and believe something needs to be done.
Aged under 20 - Currently against, but I personally believe will change their views in a number of years.

Therefore it is my belief that we currently have a new generation of thinkers coming through....

Very true mate

:offtopic: Can i also say as a 20yr old man that i can see the benefits of spanking

 

[chadded]

I met Corporal Punishment once, then he got promoted to Sergeant.....

 

[please delete my account]

When I was a lad, my personal tutor and flunky used to dish me out extremely firm punishment, almost every night, especially if I'd misbehaved.
Without this kind of treatment, I would never have become the well balanced, upstanding member of society I am now.

 

[steveo]

It's not about how many kids we've all got/had etc. It's about how do we discipline them.
Do me a favour, and have a word with my brother in law

So you have no kids then. Thought that would be the answer. A bloke who has no kids, telling a bunch of successful fathers how they should bring up their kids.

I think you should stop posting on a thread that you clearly know nothing about as you have just lost any credibility you may have had.

Why dont you come back and tell us more when you have had 20 years experience of parenting - or maybe you could get your brother in law to do it.

 

[toellandback]

When I was a lad, my personal tutor and flunky used to dish me out extremely firm punishment, almost every night, especially if I'd misbehaved.
Without this kind of treatment, I would never have become the well balanced, upstanding member of society I am now.

:D Case closed

 

[OldBlueLady]

In that case I think you need to think about it a bit more. The ultimate punishment, and last resort is used three times. How does that work then?

I don't need to think about it because it's not something that would ever affect me directly as I would not expect anyone other than the people at the very top in a school to be the one to deliver the punishment. Those it would involve would be the best people to do so, and that means Head teachers, my suggestion was only something as a sort of guide, which would have a clear progression and the students being aware of the consequences of their behaviour. Do not cards in football work in a similar way, in that when you reach certain numbers you incur further penalties?

Have we ascertained exactly how many of those that have voted against here do actually have children themselves and are not going on my brother's milkman's sister-in-law's brother's neighbour's kids and how well behaved they are? If you don't live with them 24/7 you have no idea how they behave when you don't see them and you are hardly going to be party to all the crap behaviour that goes on day in day out in most households across the land. Kids are generally on their best behaviour when visitors are round so it's fairly obvious you only see relatively good behaviour, anyone can produce perfect children at such times - often by cowing them into doing so - there's loads of cases of abuse where Social Services have gone in and found children apparently happy and healthy because they've been petrified to give any other impression.

I'm not speaking as an "expert" in all of this, I'm speaking as a parent of two mid teens, one of each sex, and who's experienced the behaviour of probably thousands of other children of similar ages during the course of their school life and my own working experience, in a variety of settings and with a variety of age groups.

 

[graysblue]

So you have no kids then. Thought that would be the answer. A bloke who has no kids, telling a bunch of successful fathers how they should bring up their kids.

I think you should stop posting on a thread that you clearly know nothing about as you have just lost any credibility you may have had.

Why dont you come back and tell us more when you have had 20 years experience of parenting - or maybe you could get your brother in law to do it.

excellent post,

 

[Pubey]

I don't need to think about it because it's not something that would ever affect me directly as I would not expect anyone other than the people at the very top in a school to be the one to deliver the punishment. Those it would involve would be the best people to do so, and that means Head teachers, my suggestion was only something as a sort of guide, which would have a clear progression and the students being aware of the consequences of their behaviour. Do not cards in football work in a similar way, in that when you reach certain numbers you incur further penalties?

getting an automatic suspension because you got 5 yellow cards isn't a violation of human rights and child abuse

Have we ascertained exactly how many of those that have voted against here do actually have children themselves and are not going on my brother's milkman's sister-in-law's brother's neighbour's kids and how well behaved they are?

nope, but then the *younger* posters have an advantage of going through the more current education system, especially post corporal punishment. many will also have siblings and friends and family with children... the issue here isn't allowing parents to smack their kids.. it's allowing other people to smack/cane your child, without your explicit permission and out of your sight.

If you don't live with them 24/7 you have no idea how they behave when you don't see them and you are hardly going to be party to all the crap behaviour that goes on day in day out in most households across the land.

just because i don't have kids doesn't mean i don't know what is happing to my friends and families with children... I talk to them. I also remember being a kid as well and all the crap i used to dish out

Kids are generally on their best behaviour when visitors are round so it's fairly obvious you only see relatively good behaviour, anyone can produce perfect children at such times - often by cowing them into doing so -

... with violence?

there's loads of cases of abuse where Social Services have gone in and found children apparently happy and healthy because they've been petrified to give any other impression.

... again, probably due to threats of or actual physical violence

I'm not speaking as an "expert" in all of this, I'm speaking as a parent of two mid teens, one of each sex, and who's experienced the behaviour of probably thousands of other children of similar ages during the course of their school life and my own working experience, in a variety of settings and with a variety of age groups.

don't forget your NVQ!:)

 

[OldBlueLady]

I am not commenting on that last post because I refuse to get drawn into anything which will lead to me getting into any further argument with that poster. I consider I have made my position on this subject more than clear.

 

[graysblue]

would be interesting to hear the following. from those who dont believe in the cane at school.

what would you do with an unruly child in class,this child constantly is rude to the teachers bunks school and whenever this kid is in class totally disruptive.

remember there are 29 well behaved students willing to learn and 1 who is a pig.


anyone seen supernanny?

blimey that prog beggers belief,the parents seem to be the modern type or simply are useless,the kids dominate the parents without mercy.

how many parents in this country are exactly the same as those shown on this prog?

my second question to those against smacking,

your child has refused to tidy up their mess ie toys/crumbs/paints ect you have asked them several times and zilch,whats your next move?

 

[Firestorm]

would be interesting to hear the following. from those who dont believe in the cane at school.

what would you do with an unruly child in class,this child constantly is rude to the teachers bunks school and whenever this kid is in class totally disruptive.

remember there are 29 well behaved students willing to learn and 1 who is a pig.


anyone seen supernanny?

blimey that prog beggers belief,the parents seem to be the modern type or simply are useless,the kids dominate the parents without mercy.

how many parents in this country are exactly the same as those shown on this prog?

my second question to those against smacking,

your child has refused to tidy up their mess ie toys/crumbs/paints ect you have asked them several times and zilch,whats your next move?

On the odd occassions I have seen super nanny she generally gets the kids under control yet have never seen her use the cane. A lot of it involves educating the parent rather than the child too

So following the logic through , why should a child be caned when its behaviour is a result of its parents failings.
I believe that the majority of bad behaviour is down to poor parenting skills resulting in the kids not knowing better. How is a kid going to respect a teacher, for example, if its parents never had respect for teachers.