BNP In your area!

[osymandus]

How could the Arab Nations be independent when they were amongst the very poorest countries in the world and certainly too poor to get their oil out of the ground? Were Britain, France and the US supposed to do all the exploration and production for free? Equally, all the countries in the Middle East "have their own oil" and make independent decisions now - they have done so for a long, long time.

I point you towards the works of TE Lawrence of 1914 Churchill diaries of the same era . The independence was self governance and their of course were doing their own exploration and local guides had been assisting the companies at the time . It was a while nip in an commodity this lot thanks very much guv nor job . Had the UK granted them this they would still have been our allies even now (They have long memories for perceived wrongs). They would have built up and industralised themselfs in teh way we did ... oh wait yes i se its competition isnt task silly me short isghted gains max profit . Still See what a good job we did . Just ask the Bedowin.

Alternatively both Lawrence and Churchill could have been insane and your observations now are of course the correct ones.... I some how dowt.

 

[canveyshrimper]

I point you towards the works of TE Lawrence of 1914 Churchill diaries of the same era . The independence was self governance and their of course were doing their own exploration and local guides had been assisting the companies at the time . It was a while nip in an commodity this lot thanks very much guv nor job . Had the UK granted them this they would still have been our allies even now (They have long memories for perceived wrongs). They would have built up and industralised themselfs in teh way we did ... oh wait yes i se its competition isnt task silly me short isghted gains max profit . Still See what a good job we did . Just ask the Bedowin.

Alternatively both Lawrence and Churchill could have been insane and your observations now are of course the correct ones.... I some how dowt.

In 1914 Independence was something that Great Britain could not grant the area we now define as the Arabian Gulf or those countries on the Red Sea on the Arabian Peninsula, as they were largely under the control of the Turks. The Trucial States (UAE), Bahrain, Kuwait & Oman have traditonally been British spheres of influence, but as far as I am aware none of the countries were part of the Empire at the time nor the Commonwealth since. However because they were so influenced by Britain it's no coincidence that Britain was able to have a major say in the construction and production of their oil industry.

Saudi Arabia & Qatar were more under the American sphere of influence, and Iraq under French. The other big oil producer in the region being Iran which (again traditionally) always had friendly links with Britain, and if politicians weren't involved still would.

 

[osymandus]

In 1914 Independence was something that Great Britain could not grant the area we now define as the Arabian Gulf or those countries on the Red Sea on the Arabian Peninsula, as they were largely under the control of the Turks. The Trucial States (UAE), Bahrain, Kuwait & Oman have traditonally been British spheres of influence, but as far as I am aware none of the countries were part of the Empire at the time nor the Commonwealth since. However because they were so influenced by Britain it's no coincidence that Britain was able to have a major say in the construction and production of their oil industry.

Saudi Arabia & Qatar were more under the American sphere of influence, and Iraq under French. The other big oil producer in the region being Iran which (again traditionally) always had friendly links with Britain, and if politicians weren't involved still would.

I believe this says otherwise http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sykes%E2%80%93Picot_Agreement ?

. America didnt have teh influence it does now, some of the companies maybe , remember the British empire was mostly still there and French was on teh winning side of WWI . The Turks were who the Arabaian nation had just defeated , so they were after backing from teh worlds largest millitary power (who at teh time could decide who got what ) the UK to consolodate them The reason as stated by Chruchhill and TE Lawrence at the time is they were told they we're not fit to rule themselves , they knew nothing of the argeement between the two diplomats . It was soley on the oil .

AS teh article includes a released note from 1915 to inducce teh revolt against Turkish rule (not hard to be fair)

On 17 April 1974, The Times of London published excerpts from a secret memorandum that had been prepared by the Political Intelligence Department of the British Foreign Office. It was used by the British delegation to the Paris peace conference. The reference to Palestine said:

"With regard to Palestine, His Majesty's Government are committed by Sir Henry McMahon's letter to the Sherif on October 24, 1915, to its inclusion in the boundaries of Arab independence ... but they have stated their policy regarding the Palestine Holy Place and Zionist colonization in their message to him of January 4, 1918."


An appendix to the memorandum noted:
"The whole of Palestine ... lies within the limits which His Majesty's Government have pledged themselves to Sherif Husain that they will recognize and uphold the independence of the Arabs."

So maybe not 14 but in 15 they said they could !
​

 

[canveyshrimper]

All that link bears out is what I said in 1914 Britain was not in a position to grant independence to countries in that region. The meeting in the link took place in 1916, and the map sort of bears out what I said about Franco/British spheres of influence.

We're probably going way off topic, but if I remember my history Balfour in or about 1917 said that there should be a Jewish state within Palestine, which at the time and up until 1948 was under British adminstration.

 

[Smudger]

In 1914 Independence was something that Great Britain could not grant the area we now define as the Arabian Gulf or those countries on the Red Sea on the Arabian Peninsula, as they were largely under the control of the Turks. The Trucial States (UAE), Bahrain, Kuwait & Oman have traditonally been British spheres of influence, but as far as I am aware none of the countries were part of the Empire at the time nor the Commonwealth since. However because they were so influenced by Britain it's no coincidence that Britain was able to have a major say in the construction and production of their oil industry.

Saudi Arabia & Qatar were more under the American sphere of influence, and Iraq under French. The other big oil producer in the region being Iran which (again traditionally) always had friendly links with Britain, and if politicians weren't involved still would.

Spot on. In addition, oil wasn't found in "The Trucial States" (now the UAE, where approximately 9% of the world's oil exists) until the 1950s. There were no locals "doing their own exploration" (!!!!) they were one of the poorest countries in the world and survived on pearl diving (a horrific occupation that will give you a swollen head!) and selling dates. There was no education besides reading the Koran every day and certainly no understanding of the modern world.

The British had a long history of protecting that region for it's own ends and while initially involved in the discovery and production of oil we withdrew from the UAE and the region (against Sheikh Zayed's wishes as it left them more exposed to attack) before the real money from oil came in. We had no money to remain there at the time. If you want to quote books at me, check out "Rags to Riches" a book about Abu Dhabi and the wider region - it's written by one of the Al-Fahim family, later involved in the purchase of Manchester City - it's an excellent book. In Saudi a similar partership with the Americans initially existed in the form of Saudi Aramco but the Saudis had full ownership by the late 70's early 80's. It was all in the interest of those states to work in partnership with countries that had O&G capabilities they didn't have.

 

[Smudger]

I think this says otherwise http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sykes%E2%80%93Picot_Agreement

. America didnt have teh influence it does now, some of the companies maybe , remember the British empire was mostly still there and French was on teh winning side of WWI . The Turks were who the Arabaian nation had just defeated , so they were after backing from teh worlds largest millitary power (who at teh time could decide who got what ) the UK to consolodate them The reason as stated by Chruchhill and TE Lawrence at the time is they were told they we're not fit to rule themselves , they knew nothing of the argeement between the two diplomats . It was soley on the oil .

AS teh article includes a released note from 1915 to inducce teh revolt against Turkish rule (not hard to be fair)

On 17 April 1974, The Times of London published excerpts from a secret memorandum that had been prepared by the Political Intelligence Department of the British Foreign Office. It was used by the British delegation to the Paris peace conference. The reference to Palestine said:

"With regard to Palestine, His Majesty's Government are committed by Sir Henry McMahon's letter to the Sherif on October 24, 1915, to its inclusion in the boundaries of Arab independence ... but they have stated their policy regarding the Palestine Holy Place and Zionist colonization in their message to him of January 4, 1918."


An appendix to the memorandum noted:
"The whole of Palestine ... lies within the limits which His Majesty's Government have pledged themselves to Sherif Husain that they will recognize and uphold the independence of the Arabs."

So maybe not 14 but in 15 they said they could !
​

There's a difference between having self-governance and being able to "have their own oil." The point I was trying to make to you was that The Arabs required and still require a huge amount of external expertise to fully realise the fruits of the billions of barrels of oil beneath their feet. They would not have wanted us to walk away and it has not caused what you referred to as

that mass , the resultant of which has cuased the economic and finacial instability for the last 100 years .

I work in O&G, have lived in the Middle East and will be back living there with my family in August. It seems Harry also knows what he's talking about too - maybe you should at least take a bit of that on board and assimilate it to your incredible master-brain before belittling what anyone has to say and quoting reams of irrelevant *****? It's just a tip - feel free to ignore it, as I'm sure you will.

 

[canveyshrimper]

I work in O&G, have lived in the Middle East and will be back living there with my family in August. It seems Harry also knows what he's talking about too - maybe you should at least take a bit of that on board and assimilate it to your incredible master-brain before belittling what anyone has to say and quoting reams of irrelevant *****? It's just a tip - feel free to ignore it, as I'm sure you will.

Thanks, I am also involved in the O&G industry but from the logistics perspective, shipping the bloody stuff all over the world to various projects ongoing in the area, but mainly (at the moment) with Iran. But I've also been involved in commercial shipping to the Arabian (Persian) Gulf & Red Sea States for over 30 years. Doesn't make me an expert but I've met and have formed friendships and business relations with many people from all walks of life and different countries in the area.

 

[Smudger]

Thanks, I am also involved in the O&G industry but from the logistics perspective, shipping the bloody stuff all over the world to various projects ongoing in the area, but mainly (at the moment) with Iran. But I've also been involved in commercial shipping to the Arabian (Persian) Gulf & Red Sea States for over 30 years. Doesn't make me an expert but I've met and have formed friendships and business relations with many people from all walks of life and different countries in the area.

Interesting - we're a pretty diverse bunch on here! I'm off to work for a JV supplying into Saudi Aramco, so I'll be living in Bahrain this time but driving across the border into Saudi every day. The diversity of the people you meet in the Middle East and the stories they can tell is part of it's appeal - I guess there's nowhere else on earth that has gone through so much change, so quickly.

 

[osymandus]

All that link bears out is what I said in 1914 Britain was not in a position to grant independence to countries in that region. The meeting in the link took place in 1916, and the map sort of bears out what I said about Franco/British spheres of influence.

We're probably going way off topic, but if I remember my history Balfour in or about 1917 said that there should be a Jewish state within Palestine, which at the time and up until 1948 was under British adminstration.

Not in 1914 no but the reason they got teh Arabs to rebel was to wound teh otterman empire and decreise them from the German war effort , if they were victors yes they could promise it they rescinded on the deal .

Yes , hence why people say it was teh British that made Irasel , and again on land tehy didnt really have to give away . It's not that im saying they owned teh land but as they were still the worlds super power. They as Empires before and after did dictate who got what .

 

[osymandus]

I work in O&G, have lived in the Middle East and will be back living there with my family in August. It seems Harry also knows what he's talking about too - maybe you should at least take a bit of that on board and assimilate it to your incredible master-brain before belittling what anyone has to say and quoting reams of irrelevant *****? It's just a tip - feel free to ignore it, as I'm sure you will.

Smudger for a man who seems so widley diverse in different cultures you don;t have get in a flap when questioned. This is a reference to Historical point which has helped to produce the middle east we have to do, that is accepted as historical fact.

Both Churchill and TE Lawrence were away and wrote at the time that the British government had influence and the ability once the Otterman empire was out of teh way to grant this to them . Its very much quoted that the distrust that sprug up against the west comes from the perceived betray at the hands of the UK and French , then the endless foreign policy machinations of other countries up untill today .

I respect you do have first hand experience but my point isn't about that I was putting across what i understand and have read of the time Harry (#Canvey ) has been kind enough to respond and knows i will take it on board if my facts a scew . May i enquire of your learnings about teh history of that period or are you chasing me down on your knowledge of today and a throw away remark i made ?

Ive just released your mistaking also my remake on independence and or with oil exploration . I stating , teh ideas of Sherif Hussein ibn Ali of a unified Arab state and their want for self governance away from the Otterman empire . And teh first oil explorations were bgun in 1901 and found in 1905
In 1901, British businessman William D'Arcy convinced the Persian (Iran) government to award him a concession for oil exploration, extraction, and sales in exchange for £20,000 and 16% of profits over the next 60 years. At one point when he was on the verge of bankruptcy, D'Arcy appealed to the British government for help; they agreed to assist him, fearing he might otherwise sell his concession to a foreign country such as Russia. Britain, still a great power at that time, also wanted to maintain a political presence in the Middle East. The British government pressured an existing British oil company, Burmah Oil, to give D'Arcy the financial assistance he needed in 1905; shortly thereafter, large amounts of oil were found.

 

[Matt the Shrimp]

I'll be living in Bahrain this time but driving across the border into Saudi every day.

I had no idea you could drive from one to the other (what with Bahrain being an island), but having googled it, I see you can! How long does the drive take?

Good idea to live in Bahrain rather than Saudi, though...!

 

[Rusty Shackleford]

He would have seen them for what they are - a scummy bunch of ignorant thugs.

I'm hurtin' Smudge.

 

[GBJ]

Agreed,

So much of the things they say I can help but agree with

1) Bringing home the troops
2) Stop foreign aid = More money for pensions
3) British People put first.

I happened to read their Manifesto the other day, and I, aswell found myself agreeing with many of the points in there. I especially liked the bits;

- where they plan to build a penal station on the British Island of South Georgia which would house "extremely dangerous/violent repeat criminals"

- Also, the right for householders to defend their home and possesions by any mean's neccessary.

- All foreign criminals would be deported immideiately, regardless of residential status

Now, of course the BNP have some crazy tendencies, and i'm not neccessarily backing them, but how could anyone argue with those points?

 

[GBJ]

Amen to that. He fought against Nazi's.

Actually, he fought against foreign invaders.

 

[canveyshrimper]

Interesting - we're a pretty diverse bunch on here! I'm off to work for a JV supplying into Saudi Aramco, so I'll be living in Bahrain this time but driving across the border into Saudi every day. The diversity of the people you meet in the Middle East and the stories they can tell is part of it's appeal - I guess there's nowhere else on earth that has gone through so much change, so quickly.

As MtS is fond of saying the SZ membership is a broad church.
I presume you'll be working out of Dhahran? If you need any help down there we've an office (in Riyadh) but are tied into a Saudi Company called Al Khodari.

I had no idea you could drive from one to the other (what with Bahrain being an island), but having googled it, I see you can! How long does the drive take?

Good idea to live in Bahrain rather than Saudi, though...!

I was in Bahrain in 1982/3 (ish) and the Causeway was nearing completion, I think it eventually opened in 1985, and it's about 18/20 miles long.

 

[MK Shrimper]

Actually, he fought against foreign invaders.

While Chamberlain did his very best to appease Hitler, in the 1930's Winston Churchill had been a lone voice in Britain urging decisive action. I think we can definitely say Winston didn't care much for Nazi ideology.

 

[Smudger]

Smudger for a man who seems so widley diverse in different cultures you don;t have get in a flap when questioned. This is a reference to Historical point which has helped to produce the middle east we have to do, that is accepted as historical fact.

Yes, possibly but discussing anything on here with you can be frustrating and tedious experience. You talk down to people like we're your special needs class - it's a tad irritating and it's not only me that seems to respond badly to it. I'm sure you're a great bloke in person and that I am just sleep deprived right now (my three year old son has a bad case of Chicken pox....)

Both Churchill and TE Lawrence were away and wrote at the time that the British government had influence and the ability once the Otterman empire was out of teh way to grant this to them . Its very much quoted that the distrust that sprug up against the west comes from the perceived betray at the hands of the UK and French , then the endless foreign policy machinations of other countries up untill today .

I think the distrust has a lot more to do (very broadly speaking) with the huge differences in culture and specifically religion. In saying that, I think every Brit who has lived in the Middle East would agree that we're well respected as a nation and as individuals - why do you think so many Arabs covet a British education? The rest is just politics.

Ive just released your mistaking also my remake on independence and or with oil exploration .

Yes, possibly because you said in your original post

Well exactly , plus that he wanted the Arab nations to be independent in 1918 , i.e have their own oil

Silly of me to think you were talking about oil. **** me, this is dull.

I stating , teh ideas of Sherif Hussein ibn Ali of a unified Arab state and their want for self governance away from the Otterman empire . And teh first oil explorations were bgun in 1901 and found in 1905

I'm aware oil was found in the Middle East before 1918 but the quantities were not known at that time and there were many countries where it had not been discovered at all.

In 1901, British businessman William D'Arcy convinced the Persian (Iran) government to award him a concession for oil exploration, extraction, and sales in exchange for £20,000 and 16% of profits over the next 60 years. At one point when he was on the verge of bankruptcy, D'Arcy appealed to the British government for help; they agreed to assist him, fearing he might otherwise sell his concession to a foreign country such as Russia. Britain, still a great power at that time, also wanted to maintain a political presence in the Middle East. The British government pressured an existing British oil company, Burmah Oil, to give D'Arcy the financial assistance he needed in 1905; shortly thereafter, large amounts of oil were found.

Yes, I bow down to your superior knowledge once again. Wikipedia and a cut n' paste of the first website you came to on your google search string....

Wow - amazing stuff

XXXXX

 

[Smudger]

I had no idea you could drive from one to the other (what with Bahrain being an island), but having googled it, I see you can! How long does the drive take?

Good idea to live in Bahrain rather than Saudi, though...!

Matt, that's the understatement of the century, they could pay me my salary X10 and I still wouldn't live there. Bahrain on the other hand is a good spot. I'll just have to think of Saudi place to work and nothing more....

It's around a 40 minute commute to Al Khobar, less when you get a "VIP" pass. They love a "VIP section" out there, no matter what it's for....

 

[Smudger]

I'm hurtin' Smudge.

I prefer to think that you came to that very same conclusion in the end mate. Protest vote or no protest vote....

:unsure:

 

[osymandus]

Yes, possibly but discussing anything on here with you can be frustrating and tedious experience. You talk down to people like we're your special needs class - it's a tad irritating and it's not only me that seems to respond badly to it. I'm sure you're a great bloke in person and that I am just sleep deprived right now (my three year old son has a bad case of Chicken pox....)

Then why bother to reply ? I find yours equally as disparaging as if you are a higher authority by virtue of being well smudger (add life experience , education) yet I've been told most people find mine difficult to read rather then condescending . Its an opinion based on ideas and my experience like yours . Neither one of us can be absolutely correct its a public forum, which for me by virtue is there to be attacked,debated and encourage though and exchange of new ideas.



I think the distrust has a lot more to do (very broadly speaking) with the huge differences in culture and specifically religion. In saying that, I think every Brit who has lived in the Middle East would agree that we're well respected as a nation and as individuals - why do you think so many Arabs covet a British education? The rest is just politics.

??! Thats like saying well sand will cause irritation. of course its politics , that's no explanation either . The distrust is ancient, (never mind starting with the 400 year war Rome had with Persia which may have started it) . In living memory and teh area we talk about it is referred to or had been that the mistrust was made worse by these deals



Oh no got confused put the wrong thing in invalidates my whole argument
(goes as shoots his proof reader)



I'm aware oil was found in the Middle East before 1918 but the quantities were not known at that time and there were many countries where it had not been discovered at all.

Well we're talking about the area of the Arab revolt the relevance of other countries. Correct me if I'm wrong but the rarity of a valuable item increases its wealth to be sold ? Well you did also state that locals would be doing there own prospecting or have guides before the 1950's in your previous post ... which is wrong


Do what you like with it , i have and will always state this are interpretations of facts (also a not sure if your aware of this but lots of text books are digitally scanned on line now so just because it is online now doesn't automatically invalidate it as source material, say as in Wikis case where you can trace these back yourself crazy idea i know)

Hope your biy feels better soon ;) And you get some sleep