Brexit negotiations thread

[dcblue]

No manipulation involved, the process was always going to harder and more complicated than the leavers claimed. The full implications of what leaving actually means were never discussed during the referendum campaign and are only now coming to light as the practicalities start to demonstrate. The utter nonsense that somehow we could leave the EU and yet magically keep the bits that we liked is becoming more and more apparent. The British people were never presented with an informed choice and by a small majority fell for the 'taking back control of our borders and our laws' appeal to a retro form of nationalism that had particular resonance with such as the Daily Mail readership and nostalgia for a perceived golden age when Britannia ruled the waves.

Our government hasn't even tried to negotiate a way out. The vast majority of the media is non stop remain. The only people who don't have a voice are the 17.4 million people who won the referendum, despite all the scare stories.
Having control of our laws and borders should not be seen as retro, but as a right for the British people. And nostalgia has nothing to do with Brexit. BTW why do you suggest Britannia ruling the waves was only perceived.

 

[yogi bear up the cagire]

Quite honestly it has got to a point that I'm willing 'to cut off my nose to spite my face.' I would hazard a guess that the EU is fast coming round to the same point of view. The UK government began this farce about 18 months ago when it decided to invoke article 50 with no clear idea of .............or rather, no united idea.............of what it wanted to achieve. Now, months from the leave deadline there are calls today for the EU to drop its backstop and possibly calling for a vote of no confidence in the Prime Minister in the next 72 hours.
Exasperation is the word that easily comes to mind. How many millions of euros has the EU had to waste on this folly, how many valuable hours has this exercise eaten up and are still going to waste, when concentration could have been put on other pressing matters? I think the EU is totally fed up and are close coming to the point, no matter how painful, where they will say, there are the doors..........choose which ever one you want but GO OUT! It's surely only the damage it will do to the EU being the reason why they haven't, a long time ago, given up on us.

 

[blues exile]

Our government hasn't even tried to negotiate a way out. The vast majority of the media is non stop remain. The only people who don't have a voice are the 17.4 million people who won the referendum, despite all the scare stories.
Having control of our laws and borders should not be seen as retro, but as a right for the British people. And nostalgia has nothing to do with Brexit. BTW why do you suggest Britannia ruling the waves was only perceived.

You honestly think the vast majority of the media is pro Remain? After more than 40 years of sniping at everything they wish to portray the EU stands for - unaccountable bureaucrats, 'elf and safety, red tape that stifles enterprise, the ECJ, unlimited immigration and various other standard Tory tropes - in the bulk of the press (The Sun - Up Yours Delors and other gems) and the Daily Mail, Express and of course the rest of the Murdoch empire, is it any wonder that a small majority was in favour of leaving?
Control of our borders and laws is an illusory and mainly rhetorical concept used as a dog whistle by the right. Britannia never ruled the waves in the lifetime of anyone alive now thus can only be a perception harking back to the days of Empire, which thankfully are far behind us, although the scars from the damage we did to half the world are still ever present.

 

[yogi bear up the cagire]

HAHHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAAHA!It's unbeleivable

https://news.sky.com/story/britain-...-transition-period-dominic-raab-says-11531532

 

[dcblue]

You honestly think the vast majority of the media is pro Remain? After more than 40 years of sniping at everything they wish to portray the EU stands for - unaccountable bureaucrats, 'elf and safety, red tape that stifles enterprise, the ECJ, unlimited immigration and various other standard Tory tropes - in the bulk of the press (The Sun - Up Yours Delors and other gems) and the Daily Mail, Express and of course the rest of the Murdoch empire, is it any wonder that a small majority was in favour of leaving?
Control of our borders and laws is an illusory and mainly rhetorical concept used as a dog whistle by the right. Britannia never ruled the waves in the lifetime of anyone alive now thus can only be a perception harking back to the days of Empire, which thankfully are far behind us, although the scars from the damage we did to half the world are still ever present.

Yes I honestly think the media is pro EU. There can be no doubt about the BBC and Sky and they have more influence than the Sun, Mail or any other paper you wish to mention.
Just because we were not alive at the time, Britain did rule the waves, historical fact and not a perception, and we were so dominant we managed to build an empire. In my opinion that is something to be proud of. Since independence most of those countries have done such a wonderful job of improving the lives of their people.
Maybe, and this is just a thought, if more people loved and were proud of this country's historical achievements instead of apologising all the time then we would be in a much better and stronger position.

 

[blues exile]

Yes I honestly think the media is pro EU. There can be no doubt about the BBC and Sky and they have more influence than the Sun, Mail or any other paper you wish to mention.
Just because we were not alive at the time, Britain did rule the waves, historical fact and not a perception, and we were so dominant we managed to build an empire. In my opinion that is something to be proud of. Since independence most of those countries have done such a wonderful job of improving the lives of their people.
Maybe, and this is just a thought, if more people loved and were proud of this country's historical achievements instead of apologising all the time then we would be in a much better and stronger position.

Neither the BBC nor Sky display pro EU bias in fact the reverse is true in many instances giving airtime to the likes of Farage. No one alive today can relate to what it was like to be British at the height of Empire, but the role of the working classes as ever was to provide cannon fodder so that British military might could prevail in the colonies while at home grinding poverty, inequality, disease and the workhouse were all there was to look forward to. I therefore do not feel any pride in such achievements, which were predicated on plundering the natural resources of the indigenous peoples, 'educating' them out of their primitive ways with no respect for their cultures and in many cases converting them to our own brand of fairytale religion. That many of these countries have progressed to stable democracies is no thanks to Britain's imperial yoke.
The Britain I am proud of is the Britain of the Diggers, the Levellers, the Chartists, of Shelley, Shakespeare and Milton, of what used to be our civilised values of tolerance and welcome to persecuted minorities and our achievements in science and technology. Those things, not military conquest and exploitation, are what we should celebrate.

 

[rigsby]

You honestly think the vast majority of the media is pro Remain? After more than 40 years of sniping at everything they wish to portray the EU stands for - unaccountable bureaucrats, 'elf and safety, red tape that stifles enterprise, the ECJ, unlimited immigration and various other standard Tory tropes - in the bulk of the press (The Sun - Up Yours Delors and other gems) and the Daily Mail, Express and of course the rest of the Murdoch empire, is it any wonder that a small majority was in favour of leaving?
Control of our borders and laws is an illusory and mainly rhetorical concept used as a dog whistle by the right. Britannia never ruled the waves in the lifetime of anyone alive now thus can only be a perception harking back to the days of Empire, which thankfully are far behind us, although the scars from the damage we did to half the world are still ever present.

I dare say as it’s Trafalgar day you will have your cross of St George flying proudly from the pole in your garden.

Or will you be writing to the Guardian to demand the removal of Nelsons column as your ashamed of Britain and its History.

 

[blues exile]

I dare say as it’s Trafalgar day you will have your cross of St George flying proudly from the pole in your garden.

Or will you be writing to the Guardian to demand the removal of Nelsons column as your ashamed of Britain and its History.

No, Nelson's column should not be removed but should serve as a reminder and a symbol of what the British Empire inflicted on so many countries, in common of course with many other European powers. As a nation as my previous post stated, we have numerous things to be proud of, but Empire is not one of them and it's about time we faced up to it.

 

[dcblue]

Neither the BBC nor Sky display pro EU bias in fact the reverse is true in many instances giving airtime to the likes of Farage. No one alive today can relate to what it was like to be British at the height of Empire, but the role of the working classes as ever was to provide cannon fodder so that British military might could prevail in the colonies while at home grinding poverty, inequality, disease and the workhouse were all there was to look forward to. I therefore do not feel any pride in such achievements, which were predicated on plundering the natural resources of the indigenous peoples, 'educating' them out of their primitive ways with no respect for their cultures and in many cases converting them to our own brand of fairytale religion. That many of these countries have progressed to stable democracies is no thanks to Britain's imperial yoke.
The Britain I am proud of is the Britain of the Diggers, the Levellers, the Chartists, of Shelley, Shakespeare and Milton, of what used to be our civilised values of tolerance and welcome to persecuted minorities and our achievements in science and technology. Those things, not military conquest and exploitation, are what we should celebrate.

I forgot, leavers should not be allowed a voice. Farage was the leader of the third most supported party at that time and they had won the European election.
If I remember correctly weren't the Diggers and levellers believers in religion, though maybe not the fairytale type. Also weren't they in favour of less state as they thought it was harmful. Maybe not supporters of unelected commissioners. Would the chartists approve of the EU. I think not.
What makes you think we are still not considered as cannon fodder. The large conglomerates, who exert massive influence with all governments, use us like pawns in their quest for profit. Politicians lie constantly to maintain their power over us. Why on earth would we want an even bigger goverment, the EU, ruling our domestic government. We would have even less of a say in what happens to us.
To sum up, nothing really changes for the likes of us. As someone has said before ' if voting worked they wouldn't let us do it'.
The only time change really happens is when the people are mostly united and the rulers feel threatened, but unfortunately they are very good at propaganda to keep us divided.

 

[dcblue]

No, Nelson's column should not be removed but should serve as a reminder and a symbol of what the British Empire inflicted on so many countries, in common of course with many other European powers. As a nation as my previous post stated, we have numerous things to be proud of, but Empire is not one of them and it's about time we faced up to it.

What a sad paragraph. I suspect this is another example of trying to enforce today's values on yesteryear.

 

[rigsby]

No, Nelson's column should not be removed but should serve as a reminder and a symbol of what the British Empire inflicted on so many countries, in common of course with many other European powers. As a nation as my previous post stated, we have numerous things to be proud of, but Empire is not one of them and it's about time we faced up to it.

I have just finished an excellent book called the Forgotten Highlander. A story of survival as a prisoner of the Depicable and vile Japanese in WW2.

it wasn’t for the sacrifice of so many good men you wouldn’t have any of those liberal and cultural values to be proud of let alone Wright about. Something you should remember next time you slag our history and the very values and people who gave so many countries the freedom they enjoy presently

 

[blues exile]

What a sad paragraph. I suspect this is another example of trying to enforce today's values on yesteryear.

Surely by recognising the error of our past ways, we increase the possibility of not repeating them.

 

[blues exile]

I have just finished an excellent book called the Forgotten Highlander. A story of survival as a prisoner of the Depicable and vile Japanese in WW2.

it wasn’t for the sacrifice of so many good men you wouldn’t have any of those liberal and cultural values to be proud of let alone Wright about. Something you should remember next time you slag our history and the very values and people who gave so many countries the freedom they enjoy presently

Liberal and cultural values do not arise from military might, conquest and plunder. Our leaders throughout history have been very good at sacrificing the brave but benighted millions in order to fulfil their objectives. Wrap yourself in the flag, abandon all objective rationality and celebrate what should be condemned. We didn't 'give' any country its freedom that we hadn't previously taken from them if it's the empire you are referring to. If it's WW2, it was hardly an altruistic enterprise, freeing France etc from the Nazis was a by product, not an objective.

 

[yogi bear up the cagire]

I forgot, leavers should not be allowed a voice. Farage was the leader of the third most supported party at that time and they had won the European election.
If I remember correctly weren't the Diggers and levellers believers in religion, though maybe not the fairytale type. Also weren't they in favour of less state as they thought it was harmful. Maybe not supporters of unelected commissioners. Would the chartists approve of the EU. I think not.
What makes you think we are still not considered as cannon fodder. The large conglomerates, who exert massive influence with all governments, use us like pawns in their quest for profit. Politicians lie constantly to maintain their power over us. Why on earth would we want an even bigger goverment, the EU, ruling our domestic government. We would have even less of a say in what happens to us.
To sum up, nothing really changes for the likes of us. As someone has said before ' if voting worked they wouldn't let us do it'.
The only time change really happens is when the people are mostly united and the rulers feel threatened, but unfortunately they are very good at propaganda to keep us divided.

This is really the thing isn't it? When you get your freedom from the 'meddling, overpowering, unelected EU beaurocrats,' who exactly do you think is going to be running the country and to whose benefit? Do you really believe that with Brexit you will escape the clutches of the large, international conglomerates? With Brexit do you believe working class will be better off and have more rights and opportunities at work? Do you believe, with Brexit, ordinary people will be better off?

 

[blues exile]

This is really the thing isn't it? When you get your freedom from the 'meddling, overpowering, unelected EU beaurocrats,' who exactly do you think is going to be running the country and to whose benefit? Do you really believe that with Brexit you will escape the clutches of the large, international conglomerates? With Brexit do you believe working class will be better off and have more rights and opportunities at work? Do you believe, with Brexit, ordinary people will be better off?

That is the question the leavers never answer of course. They much prefer the myth about taking back control of our laws and borders as though that will magically transform the slow decline of the austerity years just by wishing it so.

 

[rigsby]

This is really the thing isn't it? When you get your freedom from the 'meddling, overpowering, unelected EU beaurocrats,' who exactly do you think is going to be running the country and to whose benefit? Do you really believe that with Brexit you will escape the clutches of the large, international conglomerates? With Brexit do you believe working class will be better off and have more rights and opportunities at work? Do you believe, with Brexit, ordinary people will be better off?

Of course the working class will be better off. That’s why the elite don’t want Brexit....I am truly amazed how gullible some Remainers are.

The greatest benefit will be stoping the ever increasing power of the multinationals and making them pay tax etc. we can start with Nick Clegg and Facebook.

 

[MK Shrimper]

Wow, @blues exile. My new hero.

 

[Holy Joe]

Of course the working class will be better off. That’s why the elite don’t want Brexit....I am truly amazed how gullible some Remainers are.

The greatest benefit will be stoping the ever increasing power of the multinationals and making them pay tax etc. we can start with Nick Clegg and Facebook.

How does Brexit stop the multinationals? Apart from them leaving of course.

By the way was it the EU that forced Apple to pay more tax to Ireland?

 

[rigsby]

How does Brexit stop the multinationals? Apart from them leaving of course.

By the way was it the EU that forced Apple to pay more tax to Ireland?

You have partly answered your own question.

Companies like Apple should pay tax in Britain at the correct rate for every single sale they make.

Like wise Amazon etc. If you don’t comply, including better workers rights, you don’t trade in the UK..... Yes they will winge but soon cave in. We just need some politicians to grow a pair.

remember Ryan air saying they will cease opporations if we vote Brexit. They posted record profits earlier this year.

We don’t need the EU to protect workers, we all have the power to change things by making our own MP’s responsible

. My mum had better working conditions in the 50’s compared with many workers today. The flood of cheap labour and the brainwashing of far to many ( Globalisation is good for you...It’s such a competitive market etc) has left far to many young people with very little chance of achieving basic western standards in order to make every billionair double their money in less than 10 years.

 

[blues exile]

Of course the working class will be better off. That’s why the elite don’t want Brexit....I am truly amazed how gullible some Remainers are.

The greatest benefit will be stoping the ever increasing power of the multinationals and making them pay tax etc. we can start with Nick Clegg and Facebook.

Can you explain why you think the working class will be better off after Brexit?
How exactly is that going to happen and do you seriously expect a Tory government to curb the multinationals and make them pay tax?