Brexit negotiations thread

[rigsby]

Can you explain why you think the working class will be better off after Brexit?
How exactly is that going to happen and do you seriously expect a Tory government to curb the multinationals and make them pay tax?

It’s quite simple the working class were much better off before we joined the EU.....absolute fact

 

[yogi bear up the cagire]

It’s quite simple the working class were much better off before we joined the EU.....absolute fact

They never had it so good!............that's a fact .......though I don't think it was anything to do with being in or outside the EEC.

 

[Yorkshire Blue]

It’s quite simple the working class were much better off before we joined the EU.....absolute fact

How are you measuring this absolute fact: life expectancy; access to education; size of TVs?

 

[rigsby]

Liberal and cultural values do not arise from military might, conquest and plunder. Our leaders throughout history have been very good at sacrificing the brave but benighted millions in order to fulfil their objectives. Wrap yourself in the flag, abandon all objective rationality and celebrate what should be condemned. We didn't 'give' any country its freedom that we hadn't previously taken from them if it's the empire you are referring to. If it's WW2, it was hardly an altruistic enterprise, freeing France etc from the Nazis was a by product, not an objective.

If Military might is not the option, what would you have done to stop the Germans bombing London ?

When those loveable little rogues from Japan overrun hospitals, bayoneted men on the operating table, then raped and murdered the nurses?

Invite them to a fair trade vegan extravaganza featuring a transgender Eskimo drumming act?

 

[rigsby]

A common theme on this thread is many of you remainers fear/hate the Tories so much you believe the EU protects you.

It’s not Brexit, it’s the fact you don’t think Any sort of true socialist Labour Party will ever win a GE.

Why don’t you back yourself and the British public?

Why don’t you believe YOU can make a differance with your vote?

Why do you hope the EU will get your social justice or better workers rights when they have proved the complete opposite for the last 40 years.

Their whole concept is to serve the elite whilst lining their own pockets..... yet some of you act like peasants at the Kings feast and waite for the odd bone to be thrown your way.

 

[Member]

Why do you hope the EU will get your social justice or better workers rights when they have proved the complete opposite for the last 40 years.

lol wut?

How are you measuring this absolute fact: life expectancy; access to education; size of TVs?

Similar story for life expectancy (based on socio-economic status - class 7 the lowest, 1 the highest, E&W is average for England & Wales

just another counter-claim to an 'absolute fact'

 

[blues exile]

If Military might is not the option, what would you have done to stop the Germans bombing London ?

When those loveable little rogues from Japan overrun hospitals, bayoneted men on the operating table, then raped and murdered the nurses?

Invite them to a fair trade vegan extravaganza featuring a transgender Eskimo drumming act?

As you well know, self defence is entirely different from imposing our rule across half the world in order to plunder the natural resources of those countries. And of course, war crimes are only committed by the losing side.

 

[rigsby]

As you well know, self defence is entirely different from imposing our rule across half the world in order to plunder the natural resources of those countries. And of course, war crimes are only committed by the losing side.

So you don’t have an answer?

How can you have self defence as a nation if you have no military.

 

[blues exile]

A common theme on this thread is many of you remainers fear/hate the Tories so much you believe the EU protects you.

It’s not Brexit, it’s the fact you don’t think Any sort of true socialist Labour Party will ever win a GE.

Why don’t you back yourself and the British public?

Why don’t you believe YOU can make a differance with your vote?

Why do you hope the EU will get your social justice or better workers rights when they have proved the complete opposite for the last 40 years.

Their whole concept is to serve the elite whilst lining their own pockets..... yet some of you act like peasants at the Kings feast and waite for the odd bone to be thrown your way.

You appear to have overlooked the social chapter of the Maastricht treaty as well as various other social legislation all of which have improved workers' rights and which the Tories can't wait to overturn.
Whenever the next GE comes it is highly probable that Labour, with now a genuinely socialist leadership team, will win. They will then have the usual task of restoring social justice and some semblance of equality to our fractured society. Much better if this was within the EU, which for all its glaring faults, weaknesses and maladministation still offers a more positive future than the satellite status of the 51st state of America threatens.

 

[blues exile]

So you don’t have an answer?

How can you have self defence as a nation if you have no military.

Who said 'no military'?

 

[rigsby]

You appear to have overlooked the social chapter of the Maastricht treaty as well as various other social legislation all of which have improved workers' rights and which the Tories can't wait to overturn.
Whenever the next GE comes it is highly probable that Labour, with now a genuinely socialist leadership team, will win. They will then have the usual task of restoring social justice and some semblance of equality to our fractured society. Much better if this was within the EU, which for all its glaring faults, weaknesses and maladministation still offers a more positive future than the satellite status of the 51st state of America threatens.

So tell me how a young person is who is say starting a career in the public sector has better rights than I had in the 1980’s

 

[dcblue]

This is really the thing isn't it? When you get your freedom from the 'meddling, overpowering, unelected EU beaurocrats,' who exactly do you think is going to be running the country and to whose benefit? Do you really believe that with Brexit you will escape the clutches of the large, international conglomerates? With Brexit do you believe working class will be better off and have more rights and opportunities at work? Do you believe, with Brexit, ordinary people will be better off?

Did you not read the last part of the post? How many layers of government do you want ruling every aspect of your life, especially when the top layer is unelected. I wonder how much better off, and not just economically, we would be without having to pay for all the mp's, mep's and all their support staff. Not to mention all the crap they produce to try and justify their lofty position.
Maybe if you get your way and we remain we could reduce our own government and aides to a handful as the EU take more and more control.
Which scenario do you prefer? More or less government, a vote that may count or a vote that won't.

 

[blues exile]

So tell me how a young person is who is say starting a career in the public sector has better rights than I had in the 1980’s

As the 80s was when Thatcher began her project to dismantle the post war consensus, one of the worst excesses of her neocon zeal was regarding trade union law and workers' rights. The EU social chapter helped to ameliorate some of this, perhaps do a bit of homework before you reply. However because of outsourcing, privatisation and other scams to enrich the 1% even further, of course public sector workers are much worse off today, but you can't blame the EU for that, unless you choose to ignore the facts.

 

[dcblue]

You appear to have overlooked the social chapter of the Maastricht treaty as well as various other social legislation all of which have improved workers' rights and which the Tories can't wait to overturn.
Whenever the next GE comes it is highly probable that Labour, with now a genuinely socialist leadership team, will win. They will then have the usual task of restoring social justice and some semblance of equality to our fractured society. Much better if this was within the EU, which for all its glaring faults, weaknesses and maladministation still offers a more positive future than the satellite status of the 51st state of America threatens.

There only seems to be a minority of Tories in government who want to carry out the mandate of the referendum and last election and they are called rebels. How bizarre is that.
In my opinion the country is in a far worse state since Maasricht. Why should we be the 51at state? This is just pure fantasy. Trading with the USA does not make us a state.
As for Labour restoring equality. They have tried this several times in my lifetime, and even with nearly 15 years in office, have only ever brought the country to it's knees. Their idea of social equality is to reduce everyone to the lowest possible level. No thank you.

 

[rigsby]

As the 80s was when Thatcher began her project to dismantle the post war consensus, one of the worst excesses of her neocon zeal was regarding trade union law and workers' rights. The EU social chapter helped to ameliorate some of this, perhaps do a bit of homework before you reply. However because of outsourcing, privatisation and other scams to enrich the 1% even further, of course public sector workers are much worse off today, but you can't blame the EU for that, unless you choose to ignore the facts.

Standard blame Thatcher nonsense.

Like many a good Brexit voter I started work in the 70’s while still at school and worked in both the public and private sector ever since. So I don’t have to hide behind charts, graphs or pointless EU directives. We have seen it with our own eyes.

As your out of touch I can tell you that the Blair government made far more cuts and attacks on the Fire service than Thatcher ever did. He stole part of mine and thousands of othe police and fire service pensions.

The fact is a young person now has to have a debt ridden degree to start a career in jobs that certainly don’t require them.
They will earn less,
Work longer hours, more days and years.
Pay more for their housing
Have far less rights at work
They will be banned from speaking to the press under threat of dismissal.
Will spend more time commuting to work
Will find it much harder to afford a family
Are clearly more miserable
Will even have to pay for their footy on the TV.

Yet you tell them from your privileged perch they should accept a zero hours, no Holiday contract at Tax dodging Amazon. With no lunch break and a tag on their wrist to time them on toilet breaks.....because we are better off together.

Of course the greatest tool in achieving all of the above has been mass and uncontrolled immigration. Something you remainders are in total denial of.

 

[rigsby]

Who said 'no military'?

Don’t tell me you want the worst case Corbyn solution.

“We will have the bomb but never use it”

That is the most dangerous position of all.

 

[yogi bear up the cagire]

Did you not read the last part of the post? How many layers of government do you want ruling every aspect of your life, especially when the top layer is unelected. I wonder how much better off, and not just economically, we would be without having to pay for all the mp's, mep's and all their support staff. Not to mention all the crap they produce to try and justify their lofty position.
Maybe if you get your way and we remain we could reduce our own government and aides to a handful as the EU take more and more control.
Which scenario do you prefer? More or less government, a vote that may count or a vote that won't.

This is not really a world for idealists, is it? With all its faults (and there are many) I'd prefer to stay in the EU and attempt to reform it (difficult though that may be). I would have more sympathy with your point of view if I had confidence that what followed our departure from the EU, particularly with the kind of hard Brexit you'd prefer, would be of any benefit to ordinary people. If you really believe that the promised land will be achieved by just escaping from the clutches of EU, democratic and beaurocratic control, you're an idealist. Sadly, I fear the people who will lead you to this 'promised land' don't have the same ideals as you. Their last concern is for 'ordinary people' ..................their priorities will be economic liberalism, less controls, lower standards, less worker protection, less scruples on who we do business with and above all, greater profits for their friends. People like Richard Branson are more than enthusiastic to persuade you that the likes of the NHS are even safer, the more of it he can get his grubby hands on.

 

[Tangled up in Blue]

I've said this before and I'll say it again. You cannot compare Spain to the UK in social, economic, financial or political terms whatsoever. You also cannot compare the the benefits or disadvantages of one countries membership of the EU to another. One size does not and never will fit all. That's why a federalist and centralised Europe made up of what is now 27 independent sovereign nations as envisioned and mandated by the Mastericht treaty will never ever work and why like I, like Rigsby, have wanted out for years before the referendum was even put on the table.

I was backing Daniel Hannon back in 93 when he became what can now be considered the architect of the leave/referendum campaign. You do myself and many others a massive disservice when you glibly talk of our supposed gullibility and lack of understanding of the issues at hand.

And, as I've told you before, The UK and Spain have broadly similar populations.You most certainly can compare them in economic terms (the UK is currently ranked 2nd in Europe(behind Germany ) ,Spain is 6th (ie behind Italy and Russia, in terms of GDP).

I'd like to see some evidence for your last assertion.

Indeed,many of the assertions in your opening paragraph are just that.Opinions which you provide no evidence for.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Financial_and_social_rankings_of_sovereign_states_in_Europe

 

[yogi bear up the cagire]

Standard blame Thatcher nonsense.

Like many a good Brexit voter I started work in the 70’s while still at school and worked in both the public and private sector ever since. So I don’t have to hide behind charts, graphs or pointless EU directives. We have seen it with our own eyes.

As your out of touch I can tell you that the Blair government made far more cuts and attacks on the Fire service than Thatcher ever did. He stole part of mine and thousands of othe police and fire service pensions.

The fact is a young person now has to have a debt ridden degree to start a career in jobs that certainly don’t require them.
They will earn less,
Work longer hours, more days and years.
Pay more for their housing
Have far less rights at work
They will be banned from speaking to the press under threat of dismissal.
Will spend more time commuting to work
Will find it much harder to afford a family
Are clearly more miserable
Will even have to pay for their footy on the TV.

Yet you tell them from your privileged perch they should accept a zero hours, no Holiday contract at Tax dodging Amazon. With no lunch break and a tag on their wrist to time them on toilet breaks.....because we are better off together.

Of course the greatest tool in achieving all of the above has been mass and uncontrolled immigration. Something you remainders are in total denial of.

Blair was the best leader the Tories never had!................much of the responsibility of the present state of Her Majesty's opposition is surely down to him.

 

[dcblue]

Who said 'no military'?

This is not really a world for idealists, is it? With all its faults (and there are many) I'd prefer to stay in the EU and attempt to reform it (difficult though that may be). I would have more sympathy with your point of view if I had confidence that what followed our departure from the EU, particularly with the kind of hard Brexit you'd prefer, would be of any benefit to ordinary people. If you really believe that the promised land will be achieved by just escaping from the clutches of EU, democratic and beaurocratic control, you're an idealist. Sadly, I fear the people who will lead you to this 'promised land' don't have the same ideals as you. Their last concern is for 'ordinary people' ..................their priorities will be economic liberalism, less controls, lower standards, less worker protection, less scruples on who we do business with and above all, greater profits for their friends. People like Richard Branson are more than enthusiastic to persuade you that the likes of the NHS are even safer, the more of it he can get his grubby hands on.

I am no idealist and I've never mentioned a promised land. I also think I said we were cannon fodder for the politicians and conglomerates (Branson).
I will repeat, the British electorate have minimal say in the EU beaurocracy, but a bit more influence in Westminster. To have more influence we need to be less divided and hold our own politicians to account. The divisions are growing by the day and that doesn't help anyone except the ones who are in power and those who lobby them.
The latest piece of propaganda was the media's coverage of that March on Saturday, by continually stating 500 to 700 thousand attended, whereas the police estimate was 130,000 ish. Just trying to show that the support for being against brexit is larger than it actually is. I wonder why?