Ched Evans

[Pubey]

Lols. Ok, Johnny Cochrane, I see what you're trying to say, you can't enter into a contract when you're drunk. That is obvious. But I'm not talking a scenario, where you'd be face to face with someone, who would easily ascertain Your drunk & incapable state. I'm talking about doing something, like booking a holiday online, Because you don't face or answer to anyone. Only that little box that states "Terms & Conditions". As soon as you've clicked that, you're Bang to rights. And furthermore, it's almost impossible to then prove your inebriated state afterwards. Therefore your point about not being able to enter a contract when drunk, isn't as accurate as you may think, because you most certainly can. Getting out of it, would be possible, but very difficult.

But hey, If you're so sure you know more than me, regarding the legal issues of entering into a verbal/written contract when drunk, then feel free to prove me wrong. Book a holiday online today, then try and cancel it tomorrow, citing the reason being your intoxication.

Some travel companies have a cooling off period to account for these kinds of things. #justsayin

 

[Firestorm]

Re consent

quote <<The question of capacity to consent is particularly relevant when a complainant is intoxicated by alcohol or affected by drugs.

In*R v Bree*[2007] EWCA 256, the Court of Appeal explored the issue of capacity and consent, stating that, if, through drink, or for any other reason, a complainant had temporarily lost her capacity to choose whether to have sexual intercourse, she was not consenting, and subject to the defendant's state of mind, if intercourse took place, that would be rape. However, where a complainant had voluntarily consumed substantial quantities of alcohol, but nevertheless remained capable of choosing whether to have intercourse, and agreed to do so, that would not be rape. Further, they identified that capacity to consent may evaporate well before a complainant becomes unconscious. Whether this is so or not, however, depends on the facts of the case.

In cases similar to*Bree,*prosecutors should carefully consider whether the complainant has the capacity to consent, and ensure that the instructed advocate presents the Crown's case on this basis and, if necessary, reminds the trial judge of the need to assist the jury with the meaning of capacity.

Prosecutors and investigators should consider whether supporting evidence is available to demonstrate that the complainant was so intoxicated that he/she had lost their capacity to consent. For example, evidence from friends, taxi drivers and forensic physicians describing the complainant's intoxicated state may support the prosecution case. In addition, it may be possible to obtain expert evidence in respect of the effects of alcohol/drugs and the effects if they are taken together. Consideration should be given to obtaining an expert's back calculation or the opinion of an expert in human pharmacology in relation to the complainant's level of alcohol/ drugs at the time of the incident.

See Rook and Ward*On Sexual offences Law & Practice*4th Edition for a comprehensive discussion on the meaning of consent.

http://www.cps.gov.uk/legal/p_to_r/rape_and_sexual_offences/consent/

So it appears that its not just about saying yes or no, but whether they are past the stage of knowing the implications of saying yes, its similar to the mental health issue.

 

[rigsby]

It's about responsibility. We as citizens have a responsibility to create a society where everyone can feel safe. The fact is that a significant percentage of the female population will be the victim of sexual abuse or rape. A small percentage of those will be reported. A small percentage of those will lead to a prosecution. Discussions like these lead to fewer victims coming forward because they don't think they will be believed / supported.


Someone using the phrase 'dirty little slut' on a discussion about rape is precisely why victims don't come forward.

Very true. If only one of the two people in this case had taken any responsibility nobody outside of football would know who Ched Evans is.

People have criticised his behaviour back at the hotel and in the morning. So equally we can look at girls actions that lead to her being in that scenario in the first place. Like you say people should take responsibility for their own actions.

This case does nothing for victims of rape. We are only discussing it because the conviction has been overruled. That is the fault of the police and the prosecution service for proceeding in the first place, when even the accuser is saying she can't remember if she said yes or no

Would you find someone guilty of any crime on that basis?

 

[GBJ]

Some travel companies have a cooling off period to account for these kinds of things. #justsayin

I thought you'd ducked out of this thread? #fiending

 

[GBJ]

So it appears that its not just about saying yes or no, but whether they are past the stage of knowing the implications of saying yes, its similar to the mental health issue.

That part alone is a scary thought. Based on that logic, how many "rapes" will occur up & down the country at kicking out time, later tonight.

 

[AndyT]

Some travel companies have a cooling off period to account for these kinds of things. #justsayin

Not in general, they don't.

An airline or tour operator can be more understanding if it's the same day and almost immediately the mistake is realised "I think I've booked the wrong date by mistake" type of scenario.

Following day it's a lot more problematic, though if it's a hotel only, then they have generous cancellation terms. Same with car hire.

Package companies and airlines are a lot more ruthless.

 

[Another Surrey Shrimper]

Very true. If only one of the two people in this case had taken any responsibility nobody outside of football would know who Ched Evans is.

People have criticised his behaviour back at the hotel and in the morning. So equally we can look at girls actions that lead to her being in that scenario in the first place. Like you say people should take responsibility for their own actions.

This case does nothing for victims of rape. We are only discussing it because the conviction has been overruled. That is the fault of the police and the prosecution service for proceeding in the first place, when even the accuser is saying she can't remember if she said yes or no

Would you find someone guilty of any crime on that basis?

It's being discussed now because a re-trial has been ordered but it was discussed at length long before that - people questioning the verdict despite the jury having studied the evidence the the poster having read a second or third hand re-telling of bits of it.


The responsibility I am talking about is the responsibility to discuss things in a way that doesn't have an aura of victim blaming. A defendant should be presumed innocent unless found guilty and the alleged victim should be presumed innocent as they are not on trial. If a victim lies there are laws to deal with that.


Anyone that brings the phrase 'dirty little slut' into a discussion on a rape case (even if not talking about the particular victim) is helping to create an environment where tens of thousands of rapes go unreported.

 

[Blueronron]

It's about responsibility. We as citizens have a responsibility to create a society where everyone can feel safe. The fact is that a significant percentage of the female population will be the victim of sexual abuse or rape. A small percentage of those will be reported. A small percentage of those will lead to a prosecution. Discussions like these lead to fewer victims coming forward because they don't think they will be believed / supported.


Someone using the phrase 'dirty little slut' on a discussion about rape is precisely why victims don't come forward.

Totally agree with last line, lets hope he/she hasn't a daughter or wife it happens too , wonder if they would use that same phase to them
Just makes you think it what they think of females in general, should have been borne in the 1800 were men believed it was their right

UTS

 

[rigsby]

It's being discussed now because a re-trial has been ordered but it was discussed at length long before that - people questioning the verdict despite the jury having studied the evidence the the poster having read a second or third hand re-telling of bits of it.


The responsibility I am talking about is the responsibility to discuss things in a way that doesn't have an aura of victim blaming. A defendant should be presumed innocent unless found guilty and the alleged victim should be presumed innocent as they are not on trial. If a victim lies there are laws to deal with that.


Anyone that brings the phrase 'dirty little slut' into a discussion on a rape case (even if not talking about the particular victim) is helping to create an environment where tens of thousands of rapes go unreported.

But of course I never used that term about this case. Still it got a reaction from you, so wasn't wasted. For some reason you believe we can't discuss a rape case involving a footballer.....on a football forum.

You can lecture all you like from your PC pedestal but this case will be talked about and even more so when the new evidence is presented at a retrial.

 

[Another Surrey Shrimper]

But of course I never used that term about this case. Still it got a reaction from you, so wasn't wasted. For some reason you believe we can't discuss a rape case involving a footballer.....on a football forum.

You can lecture all you like from your PC pedestal but this case will be talked about and even more so when the new evidence is presented at a retrial.

You didn't use that phrase about this case - and I clearly stated that you didn't use it about this case so I'm not misrepresenting your words. But you used it in a more general way and that says a lot about how you view the world and male-female interaction and the fact you see getting a reaction from me as being a worthwhile result in using such terminology when discussing rape says a lot about your priorities.

 

[rigsby]

You didn't use that phrase about this case - and I clearly stated that you didn't use it about this case so I'm not misrepresenting your words. But you used it in a more general way and that says a lot about how you view the world and male-female interaction and the fact you see getting a reaction from me as being a worthwhile result in using such terminology when discussing rape says a lot about your priorities.

I called a man a dirty little slut. However you and another poster can only associate the term with women. Perhaps its you that needs a rethink on your views.

 

[davewebbsbrain]

It's about responsibility. We as citizens have a responsibility to create a society where everyone can feel safe. The fact is that a significant percentage of the female population will be the victim of sexual abuse or rape. A small percentage of those will be reported. A small percentage of those will lead to a prosecution. Discussions like these lead to fewer victims coming forward because they don't think they will be believed / supported.


Someone using the phrase 'dirty little slut' on a discussion about rape is precisely why victims don't come forward.

So will men. What's your point?

 

[Another Surrey Shrimper]

So will men. What's your point?

If you don't know that the % of men who suffer sexual abuse (and most of those the abuser will also be men - so it's still men that need to be educated and civilised) is much much smaller than the % of women who suffer sexual an use then I'd be very surprised.
What is my point? I'm afraid if you haven't picked up on my point then there probably aren't words that will explain it in terms that you will understand. All I can suggest is that you re-read what I wrote and if you don't get it then I don't think you will.

 

[Another Surrey Shrimper]

I called a man a dirty little slut. However you and another poster can only associate the term with women. Perhaps its you that needs a rethink on your views.

You were projecting.

 

[rigsby]

If you don't know that the % of men who suffer sexual abuse (and most of those the abuser will also be men - so it's still men that need to be educated and civilised) is much much smaller than the % of women who suffer sexual an use then I'd be very surprised.
What is my point? I'm afraid if you haven't picked up on my point then there probably aren't words that will explain it in terms that you will understand. All I can suggest is that you re-read what I wrote and if you don't get it then I don't think you will.

Your just the person to educate us uncivilised men aren't you. Why don't you head up to Rotherham, lots of education needed up there. While your there you can apologise to some of the 1400 victims. After all it was the culture of left wing PC that allowed the whole crime to happen in the first place.

 

[rigsby]

You were projecting.

No way was I aroused at any time.

 

[Another Surrey Shrimper]

No way was I aroused at any time.

You have an obscure way of looking at things but I don't think you are stupid.
In a discussion about a case of rape / alleged rape where a woman was drunk you have introduced the concept of someone feeling guilty for getting drunk and feeling like 'a dirty little slut'.
You didn't say this directly about this case but you thought of and aired this phrase while involved in a discussion about this case. You can pretend otherwise or you can be honest - either way we both know why you thought of that phrase during this discussion.

 

[Another Surrey Shrimper]

Your just the person to educate us uncivilised men aren't you. Why don't you head up to Rotherham, lots of education needed up there. While your there you can apologise to some of the 1400 victims. After all it was the culture of left wing PC that allowed the whole crime to happen in the first place.

Because despite your obsession with Rotherham abuse happens throughout the country every day. I have no connection with Rotherham other than two trips there that lasted 90 minutes each (and 7 blue goals). I have kids, a job, family, even the odd friend down South, I have no connection to Rotherham. I've done more to support sex abuse victims than most but I don't see a trip to Rotherham as being of any real benefit to anyone.

 

[rigsby]

You have an obscure way of looking at things but I don't think you are stupid.
In a discussion about a case of rape / alleged rape where a woman was drunk you have introduced the concept of someone feeling guilty for getting drunk and feeling like 'a dirty little slut'.
You didn't say this directly about this case but you thought of and aired this phrase while involved in a discussion about this case. You can pretend otherwise or you can be honest - either way we both know why you thought of that phrase during this discussion.

You have mentioned before on other threads your work/help at a rape centre (if that's the correct term) so its something that is very important to you.

Your more than happy to talk about a footballer because that's someone we can all hate. Your more than happy to police this thread in case someone strays off of your views on the case. Yet you refuse to ever mention the victims of muslim grooming gangs because people like you can't mention rape and muslim in the same sentence.

Its that sort of attitude which allowed the crime in the first place. Even worse was the cover up for years after because the subject was to awkward for councils and the police to deal with. We should be ashamed as a nation.

 

[Another Surrey Shrimper]

You have mentioned before on other threads your work/help at a rape centre (if that's the correct term) so its something that is very important to you.

Your more than happy to talk about a footballer because that's someone we can all hate. Your more than happy to police this thread in case someone strays off of your views on the case. Yet you refuse to ever mention the victims of muslim grooming gangs because people like you can't mention rape and muslim in the same sentence.

Its that sort of attitude which allowed the crime in the first place. Even worse was the cover up for years after because the subject was to awkward for councils and the police to deal with. We should be ashamed as a nation.

I can only recall mentioning my Rape Crisis connection once before and it was also because of Rotherham so I'll repeat what I will have said then - I am an atheist and I see all religions as equally ludicrous but it's up to individuals if they want to spend their spare time praying. Religion is no excuse for any form of sexism in my book and their is no cultural excuse for any form of abuse. Anyone that allows that to happen because are worried about causing offence to any particular communities should be stripped of any level of responsibility and replaced with someone who is not too weak to step in and protect those that need protecting.

Like all other religions some Muslims rape. There you go. In the same sentence. I just don't see why all discussions about sexual abuse have to go back to Rotherham. I don't see why all discussions on sexual abuse needs a Rotherham angle for context. Ched Evans is not a Muslim. If he was it would not effect my opinion of the situation.

Me objection to the phrase 'dirty little slut' is not the sort of attitude that allowed abuse in Rotherham to happen, it is the sort of attitude that objects to abuse happening anywhere.