does university make you into a lefty

[Rob Noxious]

What i find ironic is that most leftys are champagne socialists, from wealthy (probably right wing hard working) families. Most haven't seen how the social benefits are often ****ed up the wall by people who don't deserve to breathe, let alone be paid for living. If you want proof live in a crappy estate for a while like I did when younger, or instead do a survey of how many unemployed smoke / drink whilst keeping their kids in poverty.

Glad you used the word 'most' there Martin! Back in the days when you could get a grant, I was lucky enough to have a full one as my mum was a single parent (as my dad had died many years before) and so her limited income meant she didn't have to pay for me to go off to Poly. I saw this ongoing education as a privilege and really worked hard there (honestly) and know what people mean when they have a go at 'wasters' as I too had contempt for some of the public school 'wollahs' who glorified in the sound of their own voices and seemed to do **** all in terms of study. However, I would still not wish to deny 'social benefits' to people who may not make the best choices. Isn't a sign of how enlightened a society is by how it treats its more vulnerable members?

 

[A Century United]

When I was young, I had a broad mind and a narrow waist. Over the years, they slowly changed places.

 

[Rob Noxious]

When I was young, I had a broad mind and a narrow waist. Over the years, they slowly changed places.

Yes, me too...I blame the 'Thatcher years'!

 

[Hotman]

Glad you used the word 'most' there Martin! Back in the days when you could get a grant, I was lucky enough to have a full one as my mum was a single parent (as my dad had died many years before) and so her limited income meant she didn't have to pay for me to go off to Poly. I saw this ongoing education as a privilege and really worked hard there (honestly) and know what people mean when they have a go at 'wasters' as I too had contempt for some of the public school 'wollahs' who glorified in the sound of their own voices and seemed to do **** all in terms of study. However, I would still not wish to deny 'social benefits' to people who may not make the best choices. Isn't a sign of how enlightened a society is by how it treats its more vulnerable members?

Conversely, is it not also true to say that it is a sign of how overly liberal a society is by how it allows those who do not wish to work enjoy a lifestyle equivalent to those who do want to work?

"Healthy food" tokens, an annual clothing voucher and free of charge house is all that should be offered to "jobseekers". You'd be amazed at how fast they seek a job (or start their own enterprise) - do you know how hard it is to find odd job men / gardeners etc? Low skilled jobs that anyone could start up unless truly unable to work.

 

[Rob Noxious]

Conversely, is it not also true to say that it is a sign of how overly liberal a society is by how it allows those who do not wish to work enjoy a lifestyle equivalent to those who do want to work?

"Healthy food" tokens, an annual clothing voucher and free of charge house is all that should be offered to "jobseekers". You'd be amazed at how fast they seek a job (or start their own enterprise) - do you know how hard it is to find odd job men / gardeners etc? Low skilled jobs that anyone could start up unless truly unable to work.

This is a good point. I would be very happy for the state to take a more interventionist line in this area myself. I am also against too much liberalism because the lack of regulation in the economy has seen this whole sorry state of affairs develop in the first place.

 

[OldBlueLady]

"Healthy food" tokens, an annual clothing voucher and free of charge house is all that should be offered to "jobseekers". You'd be amazed at how fast they seek a job (or start their own enterprise) - do you know how hard it is to find odd job men / gardeners etc? Low skilled jobs that anyone could start up unless truly unable to work.

That's the trouble with the whole benefits culture that exists in this country though. Too many seem to think that those types of jobs are beneath them and that they "deserve" better - well, in my view, to "deserve better" you have to have proved yourself first.

I believe that's how unemployment benefit should work....of course all cases are different, but for those who inevitably choose to claim it because they're better off on it than working, or are just too lazy to take a job they consider too menial, then I'm sorry, but I think they should do something to keep the work ethic going. Even if it's only a couple of days each work, let's make use of this vast army of claimants and have clean streets, parks, beaches etc.

Back to the point in question, I don't actually believe that a uni education necessarily turns you into a lefty, you surely need to have had that tendency in the first place. I would suggest that it does turn out a few loonies though, but they're not necessarily anything to do with being lefties!

 

[Nobby Snide]

this lefty developed his beliefs through seeing how Thatcher and her ilk DESTROYED the working population...unfortunately, Scargill played into her hands....

I didnt go to Uni, nor did I ever want to...

Generalisations are bad, and should be avoided like 'Essex boy/girl' Jokes

 

[Rob Noxious]

this lefty developed his beliefs through seeing how Thatcher and her ilk DESTROYED the working population...unfortunately, Scargill played into her hands....

I didnt go to Uni, nor did I ever want to...

Generalisations are bad, and should be avoided like 'Essex boy/girl' Jokes

Welcome back, bro'! Looking forward to some anti-Thatch tunes next Thursday! :clap:

 

[canveyshrimper]

this lefty developed his beliefs through seeing how Thatcher and her ilk DESTROYED the working population...unfortunately, Scargill played into her hands....

I didnt go to Uni, nor did I ever want to...

Generalisations are bad, and should be avoided like 'Essex boy/girl' Jokes

Playing devils advocate haven't New Labour destroyed the working population. There's nigh on as many unemployed now as under Thatcher.

 

[Tangled up in Blue]

I think it all depends on your family/background. But im very pleased that neither of my boys wanted to go to uni.

Not very aspirational for your children, are you?
Almost any study you care to look at will confirm that graduates earn more in their future careers than non-graduates.

 

[Tangled up in Blue]

<I think it all depends on your family/background.<

As for my family background, my father was a builder and my mother was a single parent.
I received the maximum grant to study for a degree(as did my two brothers). I'm glad my degree and teaching qualification gave me the chance to get out of Thatcher's Britain and earn my living abroad.
I'm also glad that my oldest daughter went to Uni and I hope her younger sister will too.

 

[Hotman]

Not very aspirational for your children, are you?
Almost any study you care to look at will confirm that graduates earn more in their future careers than non-graduates.

OK - every published study would say that. Here's a "study" that would be difficult to perform, however if someone manages a way I'd be happy to bet money on it.

Lets strip out of both groups the slackers - so for Uni's this will be those who go to **** around all day, and for non-Uni the scroungers and the thick *******s. You'd be left with two types - both grafters who want to do well for themselves - difference being that one prefers to earn money now and one prefers delayed gratification.

I'd bet that the ones who leave school early earn more on average over their career than the graduates after taking into account cost of studying, delays in growing up and getting on housing ladder etc.

Certainly I'd be far worse off at my age if I went to uni - I'd be much further back in my career, earning probably a quarter of what I do now. I'd be living in a poxy 2 / 3 bed semi (probably rented), and I'd think I'm better than everyone who left school at 16 :).

Those 5 years of working were far more valuable than any degree could have been.

 

[Manchester Shrimper]

It's a bit of a simplistic question because for me in some ways uni made be more 'lefty' but in some ways very much less. It's not quite that black and white.

Culturally, it broadens your mind a bit and you meet types of people that I never would've come across growing up and as part of that you learn just how good we have it in this country. So, as a result I've come to believe immigration isn't as bad a thing as the Daily Mail makes out and that the purpose of the criminal justice system should be rehabilitation rather than punishment which are both lefty 'ideas'.

On the other hand, I studied economics at uni and it was there that I discovered socialism actually doesn't work and that to make an economy work best and most fair for everyone you need equality of opportunity rather than redistribution of wealth. That's not to say I believe it's right for the disadvantaged to be screwed over but like Mr Carruthers says hard work and more importantly, entrepeneurs should be rewarded and I quite like his voucher idea for job seekers. So that makes me less 'lefty'?

 

[Rob Noxious]

Playing devils advocate haven't New Labour destroyed the working population. There's nigh on as many unemployed now as under Thatcher.

I remember it reaching 3 million under Thatch...the last figure I saw was 1 million, but I presume it's getting worse as most things are!

 

[canveyshrimper]

I remember it reaching 3 million under Thatch...the last figure I saw was 1 million, but I presume it's getting worse as most things are!

According to http://www.statistics.gov.uk/cci/nugget.asp?ID=12 unemployment was at 2.22million in March this year, and I believe it's increased since.

 

[Rob Noxious]

According to http://www.statistics.gov.uk/cci/nugget.asp?ID=12 unemployment was at 2.22million in March this year, and I believe it's increased since.

Jeez...didn't realise it was that bad! Down here, there's always been a lot of unemployment even in 'boom' years with casual, seasonal work. Impressive research-gathering, mate, in a short time between posts there...you've still got the old magic! Fancy producing a radio show? ;)

 

[canveyshrimper]

Jeez...didn't realise it was that bad! Down here, there's always been a lot of unemployment even in 'boom' years with casual, seasonal work. Impressive research-gathering, mate, in a short time between posts there...you've still got the old magic! Fancy producing a radio show? ;)

Nah just Google mate. I've still got all the 8 tracks so let's get this show on the road.

 

[steveo]

Not very aspirational for your children, are you?
Almost any study you care to look at will confirm that graduates earn more in their future careers than non-graduates.

well if they went to Uni for 5 years that's 5 years they could be earning money. So a job that pays 15 grand would give them 75 grand. Your argument is of course based on people being happier if they have more money which isn't always the case. Also, I never went to Uni but manage to do ok money wise so I don't think I'm a bad example to my kids.

 

[osymandus]

Lets just distance lefty from libertarian here
The term libertarian in a metaphysical or philosophical sense was first used by late-Enlightenment free-thinkers to refer to those who believed in free will, as opposed to determinism.http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Libertarianism#cite_note-Boaz-8

Those who experince more of other cultures and ideas generaly find themselves in a libertarin frame of mind rather then say a leftist /socialist frame work

 

[Swiss Tony]

Despite me saying that I don't love everyone earlier, I love everyone on the Zone...:)

Shrimpers one and all.