Is brown the right man for the job

[superblue24]

Have you actually seen anyone who wants him to fail? I only see people express concern at his appointment but that doesn't mean they want him to fail. On these boards I've not seen one person say they want him to fail.

To say he us doomed to failure because people are sceptical is absurd. If he gets results he will succeed. If he doesn't he will fail.

This is a forum for opInions. Many are giving an opinion that they don't think he will be a good choice. Equally as many are not giving a view and merely saying give him a chance, that's an answer to a different question. Not many are sticking their neck out and saying it's a good appointment.

But how can anyone say it's a good or a bad appointment? Surely the number one priority is to get behind him and give him the best possible chance of success....Not dig him out on arrival.

There are countless managers who have done well at one club and rubbish at another, and then done well in their next appointment. Even Fergie was close to getting the chop at United in his first season.

Only when he has his team built and shaped as he wants can we start passing judgement. That time should be around Christmas, not four games in with a team he's inherited.

Let's face it, either way, he's with us now and is not going to be given the sack even if he loses every game between now and the end of the season (unless we drop into relegation danger).....Ron is clearly looking for him to build a new team capable of challenging for promotion in 2013-14 season.

 

[Norwichshrimper]

This should have 2 more options ......

- No "but i'll support him anyway"
- No "and i'll take great delight in abusing him till I am horse and Ive chased him away from Roots Hall"

I worry the amount of "fans" that would tick the latter !!!

Personally I was looking for an option that said "No - but i fecking hope so" or "No - but may he be the illegitimate offspring of Jesus Christ and Blair Sturrock and fire us to the Champions League in 5 seasons flat"

Have you actually seen anyone who wants him to fail? I only see people express concern at his appointment but that doesn't mean they want him to fail. On these boards I've not seen one person say they want him to fail.

To say he us doomed to failure because people are sceptical is absurd. If he gets results he will succeed. If he doesn't he will fail.

This is a forum for opInions. Many are giving an opinion that they don't think he will be a good choice. Equally as many are not giving a view and merely saying give him a chance, that's an answer to a different question. Not many are sticking their neck out and saying it's a good appointment.

This bit there, in bold, that bit, nailed on and with great fecking bells on it - that's the key.
Look at this season - we signed Britt - most here were underwhelmed...he's done great for a teenage loanee, we also signed Fred, quotes filled this board in the summer of how he was going to "tear league 2 to pieces", "rip this league up" and bang in about 45 goals - he hasn't - he's been an awful signing. But none of that means that people wanted it to happen.....people are just lodging opinions.

I don't think I'm likely to sleep with the Swedish Ladies Gynastics team this week, but it doesn't mean I don't want it to happen

 

[shrimpled]

Makes you die that those of us who were calling for Sturrock to go (me for a long time) were accused of being knee-jerk, yet those same people want Brown out after 3 league games - only one of which has been a defeat.

I didn't think this was a poll about whether I want Phil Brown out, it was about whether I thought he was right man for the job. I didn't before he was announced, I didn't when he was announced and I still don't. But, he has been given the job and there is nothing worse than a merry go round of managers and he has my full support for the forseeable future. I hope he proves me wrong, and that in 5 years time he's still here with us playing at least a division above where we are now.

 

[number11]

People can give their opinion On whether its a good or bad appointment based on whatever information they have to make a judgment. Ron obviously thought it a good appointment, others see it as a bad appointment. Clearly the proof will ultimately be shown in the future but simply to say "lets give him a chance" is answering a different question. It's a forum for discussion. I think the majority on here will give him a chance and hope to be proved wrong.

If people didn't give their views and discuss it would be a boring place. To say it's too early to tell would defeat all speculation, how can people guess a score or decide if a player will be a good signing??

You said you thought people want him to fail - please point me to posts that suggest people want him to fail? You said people should eat humble pie if he succeeds - I'm sure people would be more than happy to but only to those who think now that he will be a good appointment. I'd ask you, do you think he will be a good appointment - yes or no?

Also, I've seen plenty of reasoned arguments why people are sceptical but not that many why he was our best option - I'd be interested to hear those.

But how can anyone say it's a good or a bad appointment? Surely the number one priority is to get behind him and give him the best possible chance of success....Not dig him out on arrival.

There are countless managers who have done well at one club and rubbish at another, and then done well in their next appointment. Even Fergie was close to getting the chop at United in his first season.

Only when he has his team built and shaped as he wants can we start passing judgement. That time should be around Christmas, not four games in with a team he's inherited.

Let's face it, either way, he's with us now and is not going to be given the sack even if he loses every game between now and the end of the season (unless we drop into relegation danger).....Ron is clearly looking for him to build a new team capable of challenging for promotion in 2013-14 season.

 

[yogi bear up the cagire]

Nothing in his CV suggests he can build a club
He's short-term (playing loanees and no Southend players under the age of 25)
His record in the transfer market is abysmal
He's lost something like 51 of his last 100 matches - and that's over 3 clubs
He has no experience managing on our budget
What experience he has managing around our level has been a disaster (Preston and the start to his Southend managerial career)
He's a northerner who has been at northern clubs as player and manager all his career
If, against all odds, he's actually successful he'll shoot off to another job quicker than you can say Judas Fry.
He's shown himself unable to halt slides
He has a record of embarrassingly losing to Col Ewe
He's shown no tactical awareness
He hasn't motivated the players


That's just for starters.


Now what, other than the fact that you've heard of him, makes you think he'll actually be any good? I've repeatedly asked this question and no-one seems to have been able to answer it.

OK then....................what are his bad points? :smile:

 

[SU BLUE]

I have never been impressed with PB, and the performance of the team since he has been here has not changed my mind.
I also don't buy this (he hasn't built his team yet nonsense). How come the new manager syndrome works at other clubs but not our beloved SUFC. IMO a poor appointment and I am repeating myself wishing that Alan Curbishly had been appointed, as he is not currently employed apart from a bit for Sky now and then. He also had a brilliant CV at Charlton keeping a small club in the premiership with a very small budget.
Just what we want and need!!!
UTB

 

[Jam_Man]

I have never been impressed with PB, and the performance of the team since he has been here has not changed my mind.
I also don't buy this (he hasn't built his team yet nonsense).How come the new manager syndrome works at other clubs but not our beloved SUFC. IMO a poor appointment and I am repeating myself wishing that Alan Curbishly had been appointed, as he is not currently employed apart from a bit for Sky now and then. He also had a brilliant CV at Charlton keeping a small club in the premiership with a very small budget.
Just what we want and need!!!
UTB

Myth.

How did it work out when Mick Mcarthy left Wolves? Relegated. How about when Ward left Col U recently ? A couple of half decent results then lost about 9 in a row. How did Sunderland do with Di Canio? Lost. How have Reading done since changing manager? Lost both games.

Getting a new manager may give the team a lift in some cases, but in others it has no effect and can be detrimental to the team as he needs to get to grips with a brand new squad.

Alan Curbishley? Seriously ? Way out of our league.

 

[SU BLUE]

How did it work out when Mick Mcarthy left Wolves? How about when Ward left Col recently ? A couple of half decent results then lost about 9 in a row.

Getting a new manager may give the team a lift in some cases, but in others it has no effect and can be detrimental to the team as he needs to get to grips with a brand new squad.

Alan Curbishley? Seriously ? Why dont we get Capello in as well.

Well, to me it seems John Ward has done very well at the Gas and Ipswich will probably end up mid table.

Both were at the bottom of their respective divisions at the time of takeover so your critisism of my opinion does not stack up
UTB

 

[dloman]

Nothing in his CV suggests he can build a club
He's short-term (playing loanees and no Southend players under the age of 25)
His record in the transfer market is abysmal
He's lost something like 51 of his last 100 matches - and that's over 3 clubs
He has no experience managing on our budget
What experience he has managing around our level has been a disaster (Preston and the start to his Southend managerial career)
He's a northerner who has been at northern clubs as player and manager all his career
If, against all odds, he's actually successful he'll shoot off to another job quicker than you can say Judas Fry.
He's shown himself unable to halt slides
He has a record of embarrassingly losing to Col Ewe
He's shown no tactical awareness
He hasn't motivated the players


That's just for starters.


Now what, other than the fact that you've heard of him, makes you think he'll actually be any good? I've repeatedly asked this question and no-one seems to have been able to answer it.

Mmmm stats can be made to look bad or good. Let's have a look at the stats at home for this season with Sturrock in charge shall we? Think it is out 0f a possible 60 points we got....wait for it 22 or 23! An awful record in every way. So now apply your motivation, tactical awareness etc oh and the fact they were his players and explain?

 

[superblue24]

People can give their opinion On whether its a good or bad appointment based on whatever information they have to make a judgment. Ron obviously thought it a good appointment, others see it as a bad appointment. Clearly the proof will ultimately be shown in the future but simply to say "lets give him a chance" is answering a different question. It's a forum for discussion. I think the majority on here will give him a chance and hope to be proved wrong.

If people didn't give their views and discuss it would be a boring place. To say it's too early to tell would defeat all speculation, how can people guess a score or decide if a player will be a good signing??

You said you thought people want him to fail - please point me to posts that suggest people want him to fail? You said people should eat humble pie if he succeeds - I'm sure people would be more than happy to but only to those who think now that he will be a good appointment. I'd ask you, do you think he will be a good appointment - yes or no?

Also, I've seen plenty of reasoned arguments why people are sceptical but not that many why he was our best option - I'd be interested to hear those.

Of course every single person is going to stop short of saying "I hope he fails" or "he will fail", but the tone of how a comment is made speaks volumes and to me seems very counter productive. I have some examples that I have bothered to go through just this thread alone and found some very negative comments which, to me, smack of people wanting him to fail before he's even started:

Wrong bloke useless tosser in my opinion , Sturrock should still be here the players just dont care for Brown i imagine they think he is a nob

No please go brown

I never disagreed with Sturrock leaving. I felt he was going to anyway and his reign was rather petering out.


This was a last ditch effort from Ron to get us into the play off's under the 'new manager' effect and it has dramatically failed so questions have to be asked already.

Either of these would have gone done well with supporters, let's hope Smiffy is right about this 6 month thing!

(although in fairness did later mention that PB would be afforded a chance)

I don't think I've openly argued for a manager to be dismissed since Alvin Martin, but this is the most encouraging thing I've heard about Brown yet.

(in response to Smiffys rumoured 6 month release clause)

OK, I'll give you a few examples of why I'm more leaning positive than negative:

He comes across quite well in interviews (plus I can actually understand what he's saying)
Probably has a fair few names in his own "black book"
Doubtful we're in a position to pick and choose our appointments.
Turned Hull around from 22nd in Championship to gain promotion to Premier League where he managed for 2 more years and survived their first season.
In keeping with those supporting Sturrock in a time where injury has been prevailant, he took Preston to 2nd place before all three of his first choice strikers got injured and they ended up dropping to 10th which got him the boot.
Probably has good links with some Prem teams, we already know Sam Allardyce is a useful contact (despite the team)
Won Premier League manager of the month.

I don't particularly want to have to list my points in his favor as my overall stance is that he may well come with some negative points on his CV, but it doesn't detract from the fact that he IS our manager and will be here for some time. He hasn't even brought in his own players yet, so we have literally no idea what to expect until August. If someone starts picking holes in my points, I wont be drawn into a debate as it's just the way I see it.

I think he will be a good appointment and I'll back him right here and now. If I'm wrong, I'm wrong. I'll have no problem in saying so.....I'm just pointing out that others wont be so quick to come out and say they were wrong to doubt PB if it works out for the best....In fact, many will state they were "right behind him all the way" which judging by the comments is clearly not so.

 

[number11]

Good post.

I do though think that those posts show a dislike of brown but that remains different to wanting him to fail. Most dislike Ron Martin but many still wanted him to succeed yesterday because our interests (possibly in rons case) co incide. I think brown is a poor appointment but hope to be proved wrong, as do the majority on here I'd think. To suggest there is some vehement campaign to make him fail is wrong though. When sturrock was appointed there were many sceptical but willing to be won over but no one really wanted him to fail (well ok one poster did but presumably that was for personal reasons!).

Of course every single person is going to stop short of saying "I hope he fails" or "he will fail", but the tone of how a comment is made speaks volumes and to me seems very counter productive. I have some examples that I have bothered to go through just this thread alone and found some very negative comments which, to me, smack of people wanting him to fail before he's even started:










(although in fairness did later mention that PB would be afforded a chance)


(in response to Smiffys rumoured 6 month release clause)

OK, I'll give you a few examples of why I'm more leaning positive than negative:

He comes across quite well in interviews (plus I can actually understand what he's saying)
Probably has a fair few names in his own "black book"
Doubtful we're in a position to pick and choose our appointments.
Turned Hull around from 22nd in Championship to gain promotion to Premier League where he managed for 2 more years and survived their first season.
In keeping with those supporting Sturrock in a time where injury has been prevailant, he took Preston to 2nd place before all three of his first choice strikers got injured and they ended up dropping to 10th which got him the boot.
Probably has good links with some Prem teams, we already know Sam Allardyce is a useful contact (despite the team)
Won Premier League manager of the month.

I don't particularly want to have to list my points in his favor as my overall stance is that he may well come with some negative points on his CV, but it doesn't detract from the fact that he IS our manager and will be here for some time. He hasn't even brought in his own players yet, so we have literally no idea what to expect until August. If someone starts picking holes in my points, I wont be drawn into a debate as it's just the way I see it.

I think he will be a good appointment and I'll back him right here and now. If I'm wrong, I'm wrong. I'll have no problem in saying so.....I'm just pointing out that others wont be so quick to come out and say they were wrong to doubt PB if it works out for the best....In fact, many will state they were "right behind him all the way" which judging by the comments is clearly not so.

 

[number11]

The fact that sturrock had flaws does not necessarily make brown the right appointment. This is not comparing sturrock to brown, rather brown to anyone available or possibly available....

Mmmm stats can be made to look bad or good. Let's have a look at the stats at home for this season with Sturrock in charge shall we? Think it is out 0f a possible 60 points we got....wait for it 22 or 23! An awful record in every way. So now apply your motivation, tactical awareness etc oh and the fact they were his players and explain?

 

[superblue24]

Good post.

I do though think that those posts show a dislike of brown but that remains different to wanting him to fail. Most dislike Ron Martin but many still wanted him to succeed yesterday because our interests (possibly in rons case) co incide. I think brown is a poor appointment but hope to be proved wrong, as do the majority on here I'd think. To suggest there is some vehement campaign to make him fail is wrong though. When sturrock was appointed there were many sceptical but willing to be won over but no one really wanted him to fail (well ok one poster did but presumably that was for personal reasons!).

Well, I think we can agree to disagree. I've put my points across (whether you accept them or not), and perhaps I see things differently to you with regards to those posts and the underlying intentions, especially the first one.

It's a bit annoying that we have to wait 4 months to see the beginning of his "real" tenure.

 

[southchurch]

Agree with this. I am genuinely at a loss to explain why we've ditched a manager such has Sturrock - I think this is very short sighted. My gut instinct is also that PB is a terrible appointment. However he has to be given the time to stamp his mark on the team, and that isn't 4 games. I don't subscribe to the view that the current team is bad - we have weaknesses in places, but we've also got a lot of decent players for this level. I suspect that by Christmas PB will go, having left us with a load of crap players and someone will have to perform a rescue job next season. However the chance of moving forward then will also be limited as fans will want Tilson to make a return, and the board will probably be in such a weak position that they'll appoint him to appease the fans.

Because he could not get us into the play offs this year despite being backed by RON.
The football last year and this at home was boring and predictable.
In interviews I could hardly understand a word he said and couldn't see how he could possibly inspired players.
Said he had got it wrong this year by trying to play football and was going back to the hoof.
(as soon as he said that he had to go)
He had his chance and blew it, move on.

 

[southchurch]

Myth.

How did it work out when Mick Mcarthy left Wolves? Relegated. How about when Ward left Col U recently ? A couple of half decent results then lost about 9 in a row. How did Sunderland do with Di Canio? Lost. How have Reading done since changing manager? Lost both games.


.

Getting a new manager may give the team a lift in some cases, but in others it has no effect and can be detrimental to the team as he needs to get to grips with a brand new squad.

Alan Curbishley? Seriously ? Way out of our league.

When Mick left he was replaced by the his assistant. So not that much of a change I guess

 

[Yorkshire Blue]

Mmmm stats can be made to look bad or good. Let's have a look at the stats at home for this season with Sturrock in charge shall we? Think it is out 0f a possible 60 points we got....wait for it 22 or 23! An awful record in every way. So now apply your motivation, tactical awareness etc oh and the fact they were his players and explain?

Er, I wasn't using stats (other than the number of defeats) so I don't see how I can be twisting them.

Sturrock was sacked so what's his relevance to this argument?

(although for the record 22 points out of 60 would actually be a higher points per home game record than Brown has so far).

OK, I'll give you a few examples of why I'm more leaning positive than negative:

He comes across quite well in interviews (plus I can actually understand what he's saying)

I'm not sure this is relevant. I want the entertainment on the pitch not in the post-match press conference.

Probably has a fair few names in his own "black book"

Look at the players he's signed. They were all old and probably past it when he signed them 2+ years ago. They'll be way past it now. Ray Parlour anyone?

Doubtful we're in a position to pick and choose our appointments.

True, but that doesn't make it a good appointment. Someone like Coughlan would have been available and would have been a better choice IMO.

Turned Hull around from 22nd in Championship to gain promotion to Premier League where he managed for 2 more years and survived their first season.

He inherited a side IMO in a false position. He then had a great calendar year (luck?) when they went from basically midtable at Christmas into the play-offs and won the play-offs. They then had a great start which kept them up when the wheels fell off completely.

The best argument I can think of is that I'd rather a lucky general than a good one.

In keeping with those supporting Sturrock in a time where injury has been prevailant, he took Preston to 2nd place before all three of his first choice strikers got injured and they ended up dropping to 10th which got him the boot.

Fair point.

Probably has good links with some Prem teams, we already know Sam Allardyce is a useful contact (despite the team)

I don't think Prem teams are good contacts. We're a league two side. I want us to build something, not just be a team of loanees.

Won Premier League manager of the month.

I believe a League Two manager of the month (or conference or league one) would be more relevant.

I don't particularly want to have to list my points in his favor as my overall stance is that he may well come with some negative points on his CV, but it doesn't detract from the fact that he IS our manager and will be here for some time.

Not a fact that he will be here for some time. I think he's likely to flounce as soon as he experiences the harsh realities of working for Ron Martin.

He hasn't even brought in his own players yet, so we have literally no idea what to expect until August.

I think we can get a fair idea by looking back at his previous jobs as patterns emerge. Already we can see him favouring experienced pros over the younger players.

If someone starts picking holes in my points, I wont be drawn into a debate as it's just the way I see it.

Fair enough and fair play on putting forward your reasons. I hope you're right.

 

[OldBlueLady]

Look at the players he's signed. They were all old and probably past it when he signed them 2+ years ago. They'll be way past it now. Ray Parlour anyone?

Saw him in Makro the other day! :smile:

 

[Clinton Baptiste]

Myth.

How did it work out when Mick Mcarthy left Wolves? Relegated. How about when Ward left Col U recently ? A couple of half decent results then lost about 9 in a row. How did Sunderland do with Di Canio? Lost. How have Reading done since changing manager? Lost both games.

Getting a new manager may give the team a lift in some cases, but in others it has no effect and can be detrimental to the team as he needs to get to grips with a brand new squad.

Alan Curbishley? Seriously ? Way out of our league.

It can work both ways but both the Premier League examples you cite the teams were bottom of the table. When Phil Brown took over yes we were on a poor run but had been missing Tomlin and Laird, 2 key players. We were a few points off the play offs, and in a wembley play off final. We have three of the leading strikers in the division, good experienced defenders, the top goal provider in Hurst, a sprinkling of premiership quality in Reeves and Lund. Youd expect him to have SOME positive effect. Instead we have thrown away a 2-goal lead at Bradford (and lucky not to lose it), put in an inept home performance against Fleetwood, lost at Wembley with poor tactics and played off the park by bloody Rochdale. He has clearly had no positive motivation on the players.

 

[Jam_Man]

Well, to me it seems John Ward has done very well at the Gas and Ipswich will probably end up mid table.

Both were at the bottom of their respective divisions at the time of takeover so your critisism of my opinion does not stack up
UTB

You are missing the point. Col U sacked Ward and replaced him with Dunne, who then went on a 9 game losing streak. Dunne therefore didnt turn things around for Col U simply because he was a new manager.

 

[BrettieAngell]

Dean Saunders went 10 games without a win I think after he took over at Wolves, has turned them round recently though.