The Truth ( (Hillsborough)

[OldBlueLady]

Without want to politicise this too much, this is clearly more evidence of the vilification of the working class by Thatcher, especially of Liverpudlians. I'm not saying that the fans were whiter than white, but this independent inquiry has found the fans were NOT to blame, and the police WERE. 96 people died when all they wanted to do was watch a football match. The fact that there was widespread attempts to cover it up, from 10 Downing Street down, is utterly disgusting.

Why the need to politicise this? It's got sod all to do with Thatcher, she didn't make the decision to open the gates and let those football fans in. I don't particularly buy into this claim that the football fans should be absolved, what I do think is that there were a lot of lessons learned that day and it is a crying shame that so many had to die for those lessons to be learned. Ticketless football supporters should not have been anywhere near the ground and there should have been much better policing, hindsight is a wonderful thing.

 

[South Bank Hank]

Without want to politicise this too much, this is clearly more evidence of the vilification of the working class by Thatcher, especially of Liverpudlians.

In fairness, it was far more to do with the absolute ****ishness of the Sun editor, Kelvin Mackenzie.

 

[Pubey]

Why the need to politicise this? It's got sod all to do with Thatcher, she didn't make the decision to open the gates and let those football fans in. I don't particularly buy into this claim that the football fans should be absolved, what I do think is that there were a lot of lessons learned that day and it is a crying shame that so many had to die for those lessons to be learned. Ticketless football supporters should not have been anywhere near the ground and there should have been much better policing, hindsight is a wonderful thing.

She was advised about the police reports and deceit and did nothing about it. She was concerned that the original report was 'too critical' of the police - even though it's now emerged that the report wasn't critical enough.

The panel didn't have any evidence about 10 Downing Street, which to me stinks of a cover up. It's the evidence that's missing that's almost as telling as the evidence that has been released.

Also, the report makes it crystal clear that there was no evidence of excessive drunkenness, ticketlessness or violence.

 

[bucket&spade.f.c]

In fairness, it was far more to do with the absolute ****ishness of the Sun editor, Kelvin Mackenzie.

And I can personally see The Sun making a big thing of this in the morning......Headline "we are sorry" or " We was wrong"

 

[Yorkshire Blue]

Dont get me wrong people - The police cover up is a massive part in this.

But like anything there are contributing factors from ALL corners

Well said TB.

Without want to politicise this too much, this is clearly more evidence of the vilification of the working class by Thatcher, especially of Liverpudlians. I'm not saying that the fans were whiter than white, but this independent inquiry has found the fans were NOT to blame, and the police WERE. 96 people died when all they wanted to do was watch a football match. The fact that there was widespread attempts to cover it up, from 10 Downing Street down, is utterly disgusting.

Pubey, I think you are probably just too young to appreciate the context in which Hillsborough occured. Football hooliganism was a HUGE issue. Hysel, where 39 people died only a few years earlier, was caused by football hooliganism and a number of Liverpool fans were convicted of manslaughter. Where Thatcher got it wrong was in treating football fans as a homogenous class.

 

[South Bank Hank]

...treating football fans as a homogenous class.

Those bloody politicians.

 

[South Bank Hank]

And I can personally see The Sun making a big thing of this in the morning......Headline "we are sorry" or " We was wrong"

They'll be all over I'm sure and rightly so, although The Sun actually printed a full-page apology in 2004 describing its coverage of the disaster as 'the most terrible mistake in its history'.

The problem is less the paper and more the editor at the time.

five years ago, Kelvin MacKenzie said he was not sorry for the way his paper covered events at Hillsborough. Appearing on BBC1's Question Time, he said he only apologised at the time because he was told to by his paper's proprietor, Rupert Murdoch. That followed comments reportedly made at a private dinner where he was alleged to have said: "I'm not sorry then and I'm not sorry now."

Kelvin MacKenzie, the editor of The Sun when the paper ran a front page story blaming fans for the Hillsborough tragedy, today offered his ''profuse apologies to the people of Liverpool''.

Mr MacKenzie, who wrote the headline The Truth on the controversial report, said in a statement: ''Today I offer my profuse apologies to the people of Liverpool for that headline.

''I too was totally misled. Twenty three ago I was handed a piece of copy from a reputable news agency in Sheffield in which a senior police officer and a senior local MP were making serious allegations against fans in the stadium.

''I had absolutely no reason to believe that these authority figures would lie and deceive over such a disaster.

''As the Prime Minister has made clear these allegations were wholly untrue and were part of a concerted plot by police officers to discredit the supporters thereby shifting the blame for the tragedy from themselves.

Mackenzie, you are a truly despicable human being.

 

[davewebbsbrain]

Massive blame all round to be honest and TrueBlue is right also that the fans had a hand in all this, travelling to a game they had no chance of getting into. The guy that opened the gates to let them in was also culpable, though he blamed the drunken fans on it if I recall correctly.

Massive tragedy whatever way you look at it and whoever you try to blame.

 

[Tangled up in Blue]

I sincerely hope that (at least)some of the 164 Police Officers who changed their written evidence will be prosecuted.

 

[Tangled up in Blue]

There is blame on ALL fronts

No.Shame on you.The 96 people who died have been completely exonerated by the publication of today's report and the apology in Parliament.

 

[Another Surrey Shrimper]

No.Shame on you.The 96 people who died have been completely exonerated by the publication of today's report and the apology in Parliament.

completely, people turn up to all sorts of events that are sold out hoping to get in, a large percentage of people at football matches have had a drink, and people panic when they are hemmed in. Nothing out of the ordinary in the fans approach to the match. The deaths were a tragedy caused by poor ground management and the number of deaths was increased by poor policing. The fact that this was covered up, and for so long, and that 'blame the victim' was so readily embraced - that is a disgrace.

 

[Jam_Man]

Dont get me wrong people - The police cover up is a massive part in this.

But like anything there are contributing factors from ALL corners

example....

Why should or would people push each other in the first place? Why try and gain entry without a ticket?

Because thats what people do, its what used to happen after a goal in the North Bank every week.

That wouldnt kill 96 people.

Having thousands of people pouring into one pen when they opened the exit doors will.

Its not the police cover up that was the cause, although it was disgusting and shows their guilt, its their total mismanagement of the event.

The crowd in itself were roudy and keen to get in the game, but thats a crowd. Its down to the police to effectively guide a big crowd into the ground in a safe manner.

The two corner pens were empty and the crowd only managed to put massive pressure on the middle one because the police lacking any common sense opened a gate to allow them to pour in.

Blaming the fans for being herded into the wrong area is down to the police.

 

[TrueBlue]

She was advised about the police reports and deceit and did nothing about it. She was concerned that the original report was 'too critical' of the police - even though it's now emerged that the report wasn't critical enough.

The panel didn't have any evidence about 10 Downing Street, which to me stinks of a cover up. It's the evidence that's missing that's almost as telling as the evidence that has been released.

Also, the report makes it crystal clear that there was no evidence of excessive drunkenness, ticketlessness or violence.

Yeah nobody there was drunk were they!!!!! Get real it's an away day!

 

[TrueBlue]

Because thats what people do, its what used to happen after a goal in the North Bank every week.

That wouldnt kill 96 people.

Having thousands of people pouring into one pen when they opened the exit doors will.

Its not the police cover up that was the cause, although it was disgusting and shows their guilt, its their total mismanagement of the event.

The crowd in itself were roudy and keen to get in the game, but thats a crowd. Its down to the police to effectively guide a big crowd into the ground in a safe manner.

The two corner pens were empty and the crowd only managed to put massive pressure on the middle one because the police lacking any common sense opened a gate to allow them to pour in.

Blaming the fans for being herded into the wrong area is down to the police.

But did the north bank ever have thousands turn up without tickets??

Yes massive police failings but if just one person less died because a fan who did not have a ticked did not travel then I stand by my comment the is blame on all fronts but mostly with the old bill

 

[IloveShrimp]

I sincerely hope that (at least)some of the 164 Police Officers who changed their written evidence will be prosecuted.

Sorry to have to disagree.
They all should be prosecuted as we would have been, and so should anybody else who perverted the course of justice including the prime minister of the time (Margaret Thatcher) if it is proved that she gave the order to lie for political gain.

I'm not certain, but I think at the time she wanted ID cards introduced for football fans and was trying to find ways to get them forced through. I think she tried using this tragedy to prove how bad football fans were and thus give good reason for ID cards to be introduced.

 

[Pubey]

Yeah nobody there was drunk were they!!!!! Get real it's an away day!

The word excessive is in reference to the crowd, not to specific people. The crowd was exactly as the police should have expected it to be for that match. There was nothing 'special' about that crowd, and so it was a complete mismanagement of that crowd which could have been avoided (as Jam Man points out).

Just drove past the ground on the way back from playing football. Lots of reporter vans and reporters at the couple of tributes by the park and Leppings Lane end. Also lots of Liverpool fans in colours and people milling about. Loads of fresh flowers and shirts on the tributes.

 

[A Century United]

They aren't the real culprits, just the pawns. It was the senior officers, and the lawyers, who went around to their houses and either told them what to change or gave them new statements to sign who need to be brought to account. The rank and file police shouldn't have done it, but they aren't the ones I now want to see in the dock.

NB - heard a Special Constable on the radio this evening who never stopped campaigning for justice after what she experienced. Can't tar them all with the same brush.

 

[Tangled up in Blue]

I sincerely hope that (at least)some of the 164 Police Officers who changed their written evidence will be prosecuted.

Sorry to have to disagree.
They all should be prosecuted as we would have been, and so should anybody else who perverted the course of justice including the prime minister of the time (Margaret Thatcher) if it is proved that she gave the order to lie for political gain.

I'm not certain, but I think at the time she wanted ID cards introduced for football fans and was trying to find ways to get them forced through. I think she tried using this tragedy to prove how bad football fans were and thus give good reason for ID cards to be introduced.

According to what I've read/heard since, some 116 out of the 164 Police Officers changed their written evidence.Many of these PO's will have since retired.I would hope that the Attorney General will overturn the Hillsborough Inquest verdict of "accidental deaths" and that criminal prosecutions will result from a new inquest verdict of "unlawful killings" or manslaughter.ACU is of course right that these PO's changed their written testimony on advice from the very top of the South Yorkshire Police Force.
While I have no time for Douglas Hurd(the Conservative Home Secretary at the time)or Thatcher the PM, I think it's a mistake to make any political capital out of this.Jack Straw as Labour Home Secretary(under Blair)had an opportunity to reopen the inquiry and refused to take it.
The important thing for me is that the 96 who died(and their families)have been completely vindicated after 23 years.

 

[A Century United]

On finding some of the victims had no alcohol in their blood, the Police conducted background checks in the hope of uncovering criminal convictions.

The panel also looked at the allegations of blame levelled against Liverpool fans in some newspapers, including The Sun."The documents disclosed to the panel show that the origin of these serious allegations was a local Sheffield press agency informed by several SYP officers, an SYP Police Federation spokesperson and a local MP.
"They also demonstrate how the SYP Police Federation, supported informally by the SYP chief constable, sought to develop and publicise a version of events that focused on several police officers' allegations of drunkenness, ticketlessness and violence among a large number of Liverpool fans. This extended beyond the media to Parliament.
"Yet, from the mass of documents, television and CCTV coverage disclosed to the panel there is no evidence to support these allegations other than a few isolated examples of aggressive or verbally abusive behaviour clearly reflecting frustration and desperation."

Mods - Surely this thread should be in Homer's Bar - this is Public Affairs, not just General Football?

 

[Tangled up in Blue]

Massive blame all round to be honest and TrueBlue is right also that the fans had a hand in all this, travelling to a game they had no chance of getting into. The guy that opened the gates to let them in was also culpable, though he blamed the drunken fans on it if I recall correctly.

Massive tragedy whatever way you look at it and whoever you try to blame.

The gates were opened at the express request of the South Yorkshire Police force.