Does Jon Venables deserve execution?

[GBJ]

What would you have said to Stefan Kiszko's mother Charlotte after you'd had him strung up?

You're comparing apples and oranges.

The people Kay mentioned, along with Venables, were/are all extreme cases, in which no amount of rehabilitation and prison time will ever do anyone any good.

Stefan Kiszcko always claimed he was innocent, even after the Home Office offered him a chance of parole if he admitted the murder of Lesley Molseed.

Venables, Hindley, Brady & Sutcliffe are a completely different kettle of fish, where their continued danger to the public was/is well documented

 

[Firestorm]

You haven't considered the fact that there are two sides of the justice system.

Its far more than just 1% of victims who certainly don't get justice. Ask some of the women who got into Warboys cab or Simon Dobbins family. Or how about any of the victims who have been left gobsmacked as they hear the not guilty verdict whilst some thug celebrates with his family.

How were both of these cases let down by the Jury system ?

The charges of Affray (Dobbin) and the number of Charges brought against Warboys , were a CPS issue (which is not the issue being discussed) and nothing to do with the Jury system,
Which was the original point (Quoting post #63 "Not necessarily the case. Depends on who is amongst the jury, which why in a modern society the system is completely flawed" )

 

[GBJ]

In your opinion. ps naive is a new one for me. Have you been privy to any actual court cases?

Maybe 99% is high, but anecdotal evidence is even more unscientific.

Several personal ones, which I've mentioned on here a few times over the years. Although as they'd be classed as anecdotal, I guess they don't count

 

[rigsby]

My question was what are the flaws you see in the system, I cant answer it myself as I did not make the statement about flaws in the first place.
I said it was an issue (and I my comments preconceived ideas did not differentiation between Defendants , witnesses , prosecution or defence)

Ched Evans was not failing of the Jury system, some may say it was a victory for our Justice system and a failure of the CPS in the first instance, but not the Jury.

As for opinion being debated on here about the case, that , IIRC was largely between personal opinion based on what people had read in the media and those stating that found guilty means guilty, again , hardly and indictment of the Jury system.

Ched Evans doesn't agree.

Lets no go over old ground but the facts that we can agree on is that he admitted he had sex with her as soon as he was questioned. She said she couldn't remember....So we have no proof a crime was ever committed therefore he could not be guilty beyond all reasonable doubt.

The opposite to that is some jurors would ignore dozens of pieces of evidence that point to guilt and in their mind and say I have doubt over one part, so not guilty......

 

[rigsby]

How were both of these cases let down by the Jury system ?

The charges of Affray (Dobbin) and the number of Charges brought against Warboys , were a CPS issue (which is not the issue being discussed) and nothing to do with the Jury system,
Which was the original point (Quoting post #63 "Not necessarily the case. Depends on who is amongst the jury, which why in a modern society the system is completely flawed" )

In both cases the CPS were frightened to go for a more serious charge/not proceed in Worboys case because they thought the jury might not convict.

 

[GBJ]

But the point is the jury is 12 of your peers. (Better than the US system where the jury is selected by the attorneys). The common "man in the street" should be a person who listens to the evidence and decides on that evidence the guilt of the person.

Which on paper sounds excellent, and if it was that easy then we'd have a 100% successful justice system. However in reality, you simply won't/don't get that. Human beings are naturally judgemental, corruptable & predjudiced.

Although you're right about America.

 

[GBJ]

I see it as a difficulty, but not a flaw which requires change, also there have not been any solutions put forward.

Class it however you want, but the fact remains that 12 people go into a courtroom & hold an individual's life in their potentially prejudiced hands.

That would be enough to worry me, if I found myself in the dock.

 

[Napster]

Class it however you want, but the fact remains that 12 people go into a courtroom & hold an individual's life in their potentially prejudiced hands.

That would be enough to worry me, if I found myself in the dock.

Of course, but on the flip side they could be positively prejudiced. :winking:

 

[GBJ]

How were both of these cases let down by the Jury system ?

The charges of Affray (Dobbin) and the number of Charges brought against Warboys , were a CPS issue (which is not the issue being discussed) and nothing to do with the Jury system,
Which was the original point (Quoting post #63 "Not necessarily the case. Depends on who is amongst the jury, which why in a modern society the system is completely flawed" )

The conversation has digressed onto juries, however the real problem & flaws rest with the CPS. FWIW, I think most police officers do a good job, despite having to do it with their hands tied behind their backs. They, aswell as us, are let down time & time again, by the CPS, which is totally out of touch with today's reality.

 

[rigsby]

I think the US system is better. Both sides get a chance to eliminate prejudices before the trial. Of course its not 100% but ours has become a complete lottery which increases the chance of the wrong verdict, either way.

 

[GBJ]

I think the US system is better. Both sides get a chance to eliminate prejudices before the trial. Of course its not 100% but ours has become a complete lottery which increases the chance of the wrong verdict, either way.

You mean one side gets to try and eliminate prejudices, whilst the other side tries recruiting them. :winking:

The OJ Simpson case instantly springs to mind. That was never about whether he was guilty or not, it was about who could tell the better story, the prosecution or the defence. All they winning team needed was the right setting & the right recruits. That's more worrying than our system

 

[Firestorm]

I think the US system is better. Both sides get a chance to eliminate prejudices before the trial. Of course its not 100% but ours has become a complete lottery which increases the chance of the wrong verdict, either way.

US Justice system or US Jury system ?

 

[rigsby]

You mean one side gets to try and eliminate prejudices, whilst the other side tries recruiting them. :winking:

The OJ Simpson case instantly springs to mind. That was never about whether he was guilty or not, it was about who could tell the better story, the prosecution or the defence. All they winning team needed was the right setting & the right recruits. That's more worrying than our system

OJ got a not guilty because of his money. Only poor people end up on death row regardless of race.

Their system has floors that are worse than ours but my point was some form of jury selection would improve ours.

Back to your original question look up the Murder of Debra Carne age 17. I used to work with her father Roger at one stage. The whole sad case ended up ruining his life and some of those involved are already walking our streets.

 

[Firestorm]

The conversation has digressed onto juries, however the real problem & flaws rest with the CPS. FWIW, I think most police officers do a good job, despite having to do it with their hands tied behind their backs. They, aswell as us, are let down time & time again, by the CPS, which is totally out of touch with today's reality.

I agree with the CPS , comment, who appear to be driven by getting a charge to stick and will go with fewer or lesser charges in order to get a conviction. They do , however, stop a lot of cases getting to court which may collapse / go not guilty , making the Police look like they didn't do their job properly.

Personally , the biggest issue with the justice system to me is the Government (who have to spend money on prisons etc) also being the instigators of the sentencing guidelines. The two seem fundamentally opposed to me , as stricter sentencing will require higher public spending

 

[Firestorm]

OJ got a not guilty because of his money. Only poor people end up on death row regardless of race.

Their system has floors that are worse than ours but my point was some form of jury selection would improve ours.

Back to your original question look up the Murder of Debra Carne age 17. I used to work with her father Roger at one stage. The whole sad case ended up ruining his life and some of those involved are already walking our streets.

Looked that one up, Nasty case.

But dad was quoted as saying "We were very pleased with the verdicts. It was the best we could have hoped for"

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/ukn...-for-turning-love-rival-into-human-torch.html

The two responsible were given Minimum of 18 and 20 years , has that been overturned on appeal ?

 

[rigsby]

US Justice system or US Jury system ?

Just selection, not the pre trial by TV and the mad narcissistic prosecutors during the televised actual trial.

At one stage in the 80's some states were only allowing $1,000 for the defence on a murder trial. Which meant virtually no evidence could be challenged by the defence and lead to dozens of innocent people convicted. Some on the solely on the evidence of a so called expert who it turned out would be a complete fraud.

 

[rigsby]

Looked that one up, Nasty case.

But dad was quoted as saying "We were very pleased with the verdicts. It was the best we could have hoped for"

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/ukn...-for-turning-love-rival-into-human-torch.html

The two responsible were given Minimum of 18 and 20 years , has that been overturned on appeal ?

Others involved got lower sentences.

He was pleased they got found guilty but they will be free soon.....Last I heard Roger was in a very bad place.

 

[kaymac]

What do you regard as being so wrong with our jury selection system? Can't agree the US system is better, it is and always has been open to corruption.

(apologies all for roaming off-topic....)

 

[Firestorm]

Others involved got lower sentences.

He was pleased they got found guilty but they will be free soon.....Last I heard Roger was in a very bad place.

That's not good, to still be grieving that badly after all that time it goes to show that whatever the punishment it doesn't take away the loss

Were the others also convicted of murder or were they tried for different offences ?

 

[rigsby]

That's not good, to still be grieving that badly after all that time it goes to show that whatever the punishment it doesn't take away the loss

Were the others also convicted of murder or were they tried for different offences ?

The case was featured in one of those crime documentaries which I believe is on YouTube. Its on the deadly Women series perhaps you could post it for me as I cant. A classic case of our flawed justice system and when life should mean life.