Faith Schools

[Neil_F]

Superior because they get more money to play with, I guess I am and that's the whole point of this thread, is that it is wrong.

Sorry - have we not already clarified that isn't the case (at least in Southend)?

I don't understand the fascination with spending per pupil either. The last government tested to destruction the theory that throwing money at schools will improve performance.

 

[MK Shrimper]

Sorry - have we not already clarified that isn't the case (at least in Southend)?

I don't understand the fascination with spending per pupil either. The last government tested to destruction the theory that throwing money at schools will improve performance.

Why are parents so desperate to get their child into religious school when there's no (or very little) religion into their lives?

 

[Another Surrey Shrimper]

Bottom line for me is why would you want to segregate children by their parents' religious beliefs?

 

[canveyshrimper]

Bottom line for me is why would you want to segregate children by their parents' religious beliefs?

Why not? You can segregate by sex.

 

[MK Shrimper]

Why not? You can segregate by sex.

Isn't that an entirely seperate issue though?

 

[Neil_F]

Why are parents so desperate to get their child into religious school when there's no (or very little) religion into their lives?

So you are no longer claiming that faith schools spend more per pupil than comprehensives?

I suspect (and I doubt anyone has any evidence to support a contention here) that parents' motives are divided into two groups: those of genuine faith who want a good education for their children in an environment consistent with their faith; and those parents that want a good education for their children.

My girlfriend went to a Catholic school but neither she nor her parents are religious. This was in Hartlepool and she made up one of the 10% of "other" pupils. Her parents wanted her to go there because it was (and is) the best school in the borough. Before you ask I've just checked the numbers for 09/10 and it received less income and spent less per pupil than any other school in the borough. It did achieve the best exam results though.

What is it you are objecting to? That faith schools are institutions of religious doctrination or that they are better than comprehensives which is therefore an unfair advantage?

 

[canveyshrimper]

Isn't that an entirely seperate issue though?

Probably, however are (say) RC schools single sex schools?

 

[MK Shrimper]

What is it you are objecting to? That faith schools are institutions of religious doctrination or that they are better than comprehensives which is therefore an unfair advantage?

Both, though in point one I'm sure that for every child who believes that are many that either have a passing flit with religion or totally abstain.

What I object to is that my tax money is going to fund institutions that are entirely discriminatory in their admissions policy, in their employment policy, a factor in any other walk of life would be against the law.

 

[ldnfatso]

Isn't showing children that having ethics is important? You tell children not to lie, then parents do nothing but lie about church attendence to get little Jimmy into a Catholic school?

What does the kid care? You show any schoolkid that doesn't tell porkies. It should be the likes of me who are complaining about parent's lying but instead it's those who you who are not prepared to play the system for the benefit of your kid. I hope you r proud of ethics!

 

[ldnfatso]

Both, though in point one I'm sure that for every child who believes that are many that either have a passing flit with religion or totally abstain.

What I object to is that my tax money is going to fund institutions that are entirely discriminatory in their admissions policy, in their employment policy, a factor in any other walk of life would be against the law.

My school (single sex to answer Harry there) did admit non catholics, if they wanted to attend. My sister went to St Bernards in Westcliff and there they had to pass their 11 plus to gain admittance. Is that discriminatory too???

 

[Neil_F]

What I object to is that my tax money is going to fund institutions that are entirely discriminatory in their admissions policy, in their employment policy, a factor in any other walk of life would be against the law.

There are many things I object my tax money going to; such is life. I understand your objection and in some ways I share the sentiment. The deciding factor for me is that faith schools typically provide a good education to their pupils and act to raise the standards of neighbouring schools.

If I were a parent I would be uncomfortable sending my child to a faith school as I am not religious. If every other school were terible though what choice would I have other than private school?

 

[canveyshrimper]

My school (single sex to answer Harry there) did admit non catholics, if they wanted to attend. My sister went to St Bernards in Westcliff and there they had to pass their 11 plus to gain admittance. Is that discriminatory too???

Thanks Steve. People would argue that segregating kids by an exam is discriminatory. FWIW I wouldn't.

 

[Napster]

I suspect (and I doubt anyone has any evidence to support a contention here) that parents' motives are divided into two groups: those of genuine faith who want a good education for their children in an environment consistent with their faith; and those parents that want a good education for their children.

I can answer that one. My eldest starts secondary school in September. The faith school in Tunbridge Wells is very good. Indeed, it has the best results of non-grammar schools in the area. We visited, and I thought it was a solid school. We put it down as first choice, and as we have been going to church, the missus more than me to be honest, the vicar put down that he knows us, etc. However, the more we thought about it, the more we thought the rigidities of a faith-based school, bearing in mind my missus went to one herself, can be quite demanding. As it happens, we didn't get in, which was a relief, the school she is going to has better A-Level results, and is improving in its GSCEs thanks to a new headmistress. Plus her best friend is going there which helps.

Overall, yes, I was impressed by its results, its ethos, but not really its rigid enforcement of prayers, liturgy, etc.

 

[Napster]

There are many things I object my tax money going to; such is life. I understand your objection and in some ways I share the sentiment. The deciding factor for me is that faith schools typically provide a good education to their pupils and act to raise the standards of neighbouring schools.

If I were a parent I would be uncomfortable sending my child to a faith school as I am not religious. If every other school were terible though what choice would I have other than private school?

Exactly. The school nearest to us is awful. But some parents like it because it's closeby. It's a failing school, and no way would I want my kids to go there.

 

[MK Shrimper]

What does the kid care? You show any schoolkid that doesn't tell porkies. It should be the likes of me who are complaining about parent's lying but instead it's those who you who are not prepared to play the system for the benefit of your kid. I hope you r proud of ethics!

When it's my turn to choose schools for my daughter I would not be at all comfortable sending her to a school that tells her that if she's bad she's going to hell and install all that guilt on her, because to me that's more damaging IMHO.

 

[Smudger]

I can answer that one. My eldest starts secondary school in September. The faith school in Tunbridge Wells is very good. Indeed, it has the best results of non-grammar schools in the area. We visited, and I thought it was a solid school. We put it down as first choice, and as we have been going to church, the missus more than me to be honest, the vicar put down that he knows us, etc. However, the more we thought about it, the more we thought the rigidities of a faith-based school, bearing in mind my missus went to one herself, can be quite demanding. As it happens, we didn't get in, which was a relief, the school she is going to has better A-Level results, and is improving in its GSCEs thanks to a new headmistress. Plus her best friend is going there which helps.

Overall, yes, I was impressed by its results, its ethos, but not really its rigid enforcement of prayers, liturgy, etc.

Great post. I'd like my kids to go to the best schools possible and I've seen with my own eyes that these often seem to be catholic schools. Great education, maybe great people, great teachers with good values etc, I really accept that not all religious people are bad people by any stretch. In saying that, please leave the religious indoctrination out of a child's education. Let's look at the core principles....believe what I tell you to believe or face eternal damnation. Believe our version of events (as everyone else is wrong)...or face eternal damanation. Essentially it's Christopher Hitchen's "Celestial North Korea" idea and it's absolutely not required to educate or improve our children....

If you want to bull**** your kids, do it at home.

 

[southend4ever]

There are many things I object my tax money going to; such is life. I understand your objection and in some ways I share the sentiment. The deciding factor for me is that faith schools typically provide a good education to their pupils and act to raise the standards of neighbouring schools.

If I were a parent I would be uncomfortable sending my child to a faith school as I am not religious. If every other school were terible though what choice would I have other than private school?

I wouldn't expect any less from an Old Westcliffian! Good post.

 

[Another Surrey Shrimper]

Why not? You can segregate by sex.

In my perfect world, which in this case I don't think is hard to achieve, you shouldn't have single sex schools either. I think schools should reflect society as education is about more that academic subjects. I have three daughters, and my next door neighbours have two daughers each - so the lack of male influence is apparent. The closest senior school to my house is Catholic all gils with a very strict intake policy. The next nearest is single sex 'secondary modern' as the 3rd closest in single sex selective high school. So we are on our 4th closest to find a school that doesn't reject 50% of the population on top of the fact that we've been rejected for not being Catholic. The parents choice vibe that politicians bang on about only works if what you want is on offer and as I want something normal for my kids I'm not being catered for very well.

 

[Another Surrey Shrimper]

There are many things I object my tax money going to; such is life. I understand your objection and in some ways I share the sentiment. The deciding factor for me is that faith schools typically provide a good education to their pupils and act to raise the standards of neighbouring schools.

If I were a parent I would be uncomfortable sending my child to a faith school as I am not religious. If every other school were terible though what choice would I have other than private school?

which again is dividing children up by the wealth of their parents, if there wasn't so much messing around in terms of gender, wealth, religion, whether some celebrity writer wants to open a school in your area or not, ablity / affordability of tutors for selection exams, etc etc, kids would go to their local school and create a bond known as community.

 

[canveyshrimper]

In my perfect world, which in this case I don't think is hard to achieve, you shouldn't have single sex schools either. I think schools should reflect society as education is about more that academic subjects. I have three daughters, and my next door neighbours have two daughers each - so the lack of male influence is apparent. The closest senior school to my house is Catholic all gils with a very strict intake policy. The next nearest is single sex 'secondary modern' as the 3rd closest in single sex selective high school. So we are on our 4th closest to find a school that doesn't reject 50% of the population on top of the fact that we've been rejected for not being Catholic. The parents choice vibe that politicians bang on about only works if what you want is on offer and as I want something normal for my kids I'm not being catered for very well.

Not wanting to take this too far off topic, and being simplistic it seems like the majority in your area are being catered for. 75% of the schools are single sex, is that abnormal. Assuming that's the same percentage for boys schools.