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Steve McClaren In Disguise

I will do my best, its just that as the club means so much to me I cant stand another 10 years of potentially languishing in between divisions 1 and 2 which what I fear is going to happen.

But for the eight years or so until Tilson arrived, we had a succession of "potentially good" managers:

Alvin Martin - top flight ex-pro turned manager
Alan Little - wise old lower league head, did well with York City
Rob Newman - top flight ex-pro turned manager
Steve Wignall - wise old lower league head, did well with Col Ewe
Stewart Robson - top flight ex-pro turned manager...

And, guess what, we were unutterably sh*t under all of them!! We weren't even "languishing" (8th...?) in League One - we were down at the toilet end of League Two, looking over our shoulder at the Conference trap-door and praying we might scrape a draw at Macclesfield the following weekend.

Yes, after the roaring success of 2004-06, this season is a little frustrating. But who - really, who? - would we be better off having manage us at the moment? Give me a name or two, and let's discuss them.

We're 8th in League One, FFS. Given that we were 20th in League Two when Tilson took over, that still makes Tilly a long way ahead of his initial benchmark.

Yours, in exapseration,

Matt
 
I love tilly and brush.. however, they cannot live on the back of 2 good seasons forever!

Three surely? Saving us from the Conference and getting us to the LDV Final in 03/04 has to count as 'good'.

And I think 05/06 is in the 'excellent' category rather than merely good anyway.
 
In some ways we are struggling this season but most professional observers rate us as one of the stronger teams in the division and obviously within the game Tilson has has a seriously good reputation
And doesn't that add to the frustrations, in that despite all the Green rep Tilly apparently has in the game we still can't get enough, or in fact you might say any, decent players on loan from the bigger clubs.
 
And doesn't that add to the frustrations, in that despite all the Green rep Tilly apparently has in the game we still can't get enough, or in fact you might say any, decent players on loan from the bigger clubs.

Because players want lots of the one thing that we don't have an awful lot of at the moment...

Cash.
 
Quite surprised to see a thread of this nature posted at the moment, but nonetheless, it jas plenty of validity, in that it isn't someone just coming on here and saying that's it, sack the manager!!

My own personal opinion is that I do not think Tilly and Brush should be removed yet, after last season, and on the back of what they achieved the season prior to that, they absolutely deserve the chance to put things right.

That doesn't mean, however, they should be given an indefinate period of time to bring more success to the club, or take the club backwards. I think sacking them would not achieve anything of any note - we are 8th in the league, and while I am of the opinion that is a slightly false position, we are still only 6 points off the play off spots, and I don't think RM could justifiably sack them right now.

There does, however, need to be signs of improvement and an upturn, both in terms of form, and quality being brought into the club. As I have said many times, whilst we were scratching around in the depths of League Two when they arrived, that is a distant memory now, and not at all relevant to how we judge success now. The only history we need to be aware of is that we were a Championship side last season, and now we are a League One side. That in my eyes is now progress.

That being said, it was never going to be an easy task to keep us afloat last season, I remember reading some of the posts on here before we kicked a ball in the CCC, and laughing out loud at the expectation of some of the fans - but it was absolutely realistic that we could, and should, have managed to stay up last season. Huge mistakes in the transfer market cost us dear, and the lack of bodies towards the end of the season due to the policy of a small squad hurt us even more, and the blame for that can only be laid at the door of Tilly.

We had an opportunity to consolidate ourselves in the second tier of English football, and we blew that spectacularly, and now we have to try and get back there, which is proving a lot more difficult than remaining there in the first place could have done had we of done the right things last season.

Tilly has to be credited for stopping the initial fall however - often, a team being relegated from the division above can sustain a hangover to begin with which can end up putting them in all sorts of trouble the following season, and often a 2nd relegation on the bounce can become a reality. The problem is, Tilly managed to avoid that in the early stages of the season, and had us looking much like the team of old, with flowing football and looking a match for anyone - it is now that we have suddenly hit a wall, and that is far more worrying.

I genuinely fear that when the going gets tough, Tilly, and Brush, do struggle to know what to do for the best to halt that slide of form, and it appears that is happening now. During the first two season, it was all plain sailing to a certain extent, Tilly was under no pressure, and he took full advantage of that, and got 2 successive promotions - it is different now, there is pressure, genuine pressure, to ensure our club is successful, and I believe that is getting to both him and RM.

As I said previously, we are no longer that League Two team struggling in front of crowds in the region of 3,500, we are a team fresh out of the Championship, averaging not that much under 8,000, with a lot more disposable income than we have previously had. If we are looking at spending in the region of half a million quid on 2 players in this window, which is what I can only assume listening to RM's comments after the Yeovil game, then we absolutely have to be challenging nearer the top of this leage, because not many other clubs are spending that kind of dough at our level.

Some of you suggest that Tilly should remain in charge until it looks like we are ending up in a worse position than when he took over - but why? There is no room in football for sentiment, and whilst I do believe sticking with Tilly at the moment is the right thing to do, all of the good work he has done cannot be allowed to be undone by the same person. He simply cannot have carte blanche over the running of the team if it looks like we are slipping further down the footballing pyramid. What possible good could come from leaving Tilly in charge if we were headed for League Two again?

I am ambitious, as I am sure every other fan on here, and up and down the country is, along with RM, and I want success for my club. How we got here is not irrelevant, it is how we maintain our success that matters - at the moment, I still think Tilly has the best chance of doing that, but I am not as convinced as I was a few months back, and if building on our recent success meant doing that with a different management team, then I would have no qualms about that.

Tilly for now, no question, but not indefinately is the success doesn't follow.
 
Long post RC (as always :) ).

However we are a club of 7000 attedances, what makes you think we should have survived in the CCC? (even with 10,000) when the likes of Gillingham/Brighton/Luton didnt, and Scunthorpe and Col U are struggling too. People cant use the look at Col U reason now...

Agree with a lot of what you say, if we spend the money we should hope to be doing better than we are now, but even if we spent 400k we would still be lucky to finish in the top 4 with the likes of Leeds/Forest and Swansea in this division.

We were a Championship side last season because we got promoted, not because we had a Championship side after al. The same as Derby are a Championship side in the Premiership....
 
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Long post RC (as always :) ).

However we are a club of 7000 attedances, what makes you think we should have survived in the CCC? (even with 10,000) when the likes of Gillingham/Brighton/Luton didnt, and Scunthorpe and Col U are struggling too. People cant use the look at Col U reason now...

Agree with a lot of what you say, if we spend the money we should hope to be doing better than we are now, but even if we spent 400k we would still be lucky to finish in the top 4 with the likes of Leeds/Forest and Swansea in this division.

We were a Championship side last season because we got promoted, not because we had a Championship side after al. The same as Derby are a Championship side in the Premiership....

The reason I believe survival in that league was possible is because we did it, for 6 years in a row, with much lesser attendances, and quite probably, with far less money to spend!

I fully appreciate football and times have changed and moved on since then, and it is more difficult for clubs of a smaller persuasion to be successful, but if you look at how close were to staying up, and you look at how much money was wasted on bad players, and on how small our squad was come the most important part of the season, do you not think it entirely probable that with the mixture of a bigger squad and perhaps 2 players of a better ilk than we bought in, that we would have stayed up? I certainly do, and I think the majority of fans do, which is perhaps why the outbreak of frustration was quite so high.

It perhaps wasn't the fact that we got relegated, it was more the reasons why we got relegated, and that is what leaves a bad taste in the mouth.

You are correct, we are behind the likes of Swansea, Forest and Leeds both in terms of fan base and income, but not that far behind them that we still can't compete for success. OK, perhaps Leeds and Forest, but not Swansea - it is only recently they have become a 'big' side, before their move to the Liberty, they were a club going nowhere.
 
RC Im not quoting you as disk space is expensive:)

Comparisons with 15 years ago are irrelevant. The CCC is totally different now and teams like Stoke are spending a million on a player now.

I think we could have done better last season and in the middle we were in playoff form but we left it with too much to do.

However theres a long list of clubs our size who have been relegated and the fact that Col U are now rock bottom after spending money pre-season shows its not a guarantee of success.

We are a league one sized club at present and thats where we are, although we should expect to be able to challenge for the play offs, and we are only 7 pts adrift so not miles off.
 
But who - really, who? - would we be better off having manage us at the moment? Give me a name or two, and let's discuss them.

Not advocating the disposal of T&B, but you asked for a name or 2 to discuss.

How about Paul Simpson? Didn't cut it in the CCC with Preston, but did a Tilly-esque job in reinvigorating Carlisle. OK, there might be the usual geographic issues, but he might be better linked in terms of contacts, especially with northern managers/players who might also be willing to relocate!
 
Not advocating the disposal of T&B, but you asked for a name or 2 to discuss.

How about Paul Simpson? Didn't cut it in the CCC with Preston, but did a Tilly-esque job in reinvigorating Carlisle. OK, there might be the usual geographic issues, but he might be better linked in terms of contacts, especially with northern managers/players who might also be willing to relocate!

How about me? I don't mind moving south and I've played FM2008 a bit - haven't worked out how to substitute players yet, so shurley I'm a perfect Tilson replacement?
 
RC Im not quoting you as disk space is expensive:)

Comparisons with 15 years ago are irrelevant. The CCC is totally different now and teams like Stoke are spending a million on a player now.

I think we could have done better last season and in the middle we were in playoff form but we left it with too much to do.

However theres a long list of clubs our size who have been relegated and the fact that Col U are now rock bottom after spending money pre-season shows its not a guarantee of success.

We are a league one sized club at present and thats where we are, although we should expect to be able to challenge for the play offs, and we are only 7 pts adrift so not miles off.

You say that, but Stoke spending a million quid now is probably the equivalent of them spending say 300-400 on a player back then, so has it changed that much? Remember we spent £500,000 on a player back then, and if I remember correctly, RM published a list of what we have spent over the last 12 months on players, and that figure was well in excess of a million quid?

The Colchester example is not as bad as you make out neither - yes, they are rock bottom, but 2 wins and they could be out of the relegation zone. Add to that, the main reason for their downturn in form this season is the absence of their strikeforce from last season, with Cureton and Iwellumo, i would hazard a guess they would still be in mid table. We are a comparable size team to Blackpool, and after a slow start, they are ding rather OK this season.

Attendences and league positions don't always correspond unfortunately, and our success, or potential for it, should not just be put down to how large, or small, our fan base is. You are completely justified in saying that we represent a League Once size club, and I am inclined to agree with you, but from where we were last season, we have taken a step backwards, and we need to push on now and take advantage of the position Tilly got us into in the first place.
 
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Building a team of future prospects. Tilson clearly has the worst intentions. Why doesn't he just take his money and leave, I can see it clearly in his eyes...the Wignall stare. :eek:
 
The reason I believe survival in that league was possible is because we did it, for 6 years in a row, with much lesser attendances, and quite probably, with far less money to spend!

I fully appreciate football and times have changed and moved on since then, and it is more difficult for clubs of a smaller persuasion to be successful, but if you look at how close were to staying up, and you look at how much money was wasted on bad players, and on how small our squad was come the most important part of the season, do you not think it entirely probable that with the mixture of a bigger squad and perhaps 2 players of a better ilk than we bought in, that we would have stayed up? I certainly do, and I think the majority of fans do, which is perhaps why the outbreak of frustration was quite so high.

It perhaps wasn't the fact that we got relegated, it was more the reasons why we got relegated, and that is what leaves a bad taste in the mouth.

You are correct, we are behind the likes of Swansea, Forest and Leeds both in terms of fan base and income, but not that far behind them that we still can't compete for success. OK, perhaps Leeds and Forest, but not Swansea - it is only recently they have become a 'big' side, before their move to the Liberty, they were a club going nowhere.


Hi guys, new boy here. Used to post on the old OS forum til it mysteriously dissapeared & have been following the SZ forums ever since. This subject has finally made me register & get involved!

Richard, yes we stayed up for 6 years, and ended up in a huge financial mess which RM has thankfully dug us out of. It came about from paying huge wages & transfer fees (£500k for Mike Marsh, £400k for the very average Gary Poole to name a couple) that the club could not possibly afford or sustain. When we went down, we plummeted to the foot of the entire league with hardly a pause for breath, & stayed there for 5 years on the brink of financial extinction.

Personally, I can take a season or 2 of League 1 mediocrity if it stabilises us at this level. Momentum took us into the Championship & yes we probably weren't ready for it, & certainly didn't expect it. But the experience gained by T&B, RM and the players who've stayed is invaluable, and in my view it would be crazy to allow that experience to end up benefitting another club, because believe me if we let T&B go they wouldn't be out of work for long after what they've achieved at a smallish provincial club on a tight budget.

People need to be realistic. With our infrastructure / income / fanbase etc it would be a hard job for anyone to sustain Championship status. Even now we're probably punching above our weight.

Wouldn't it be ironic is T&B's finest moment turned out to be the very thing that ultimately gets them hounded out of the club, because supporters can't accept them not maintaining the unrealistic highs they managed to achieve against the odds.

As you can probably tell, i'm firmly in the 'keep T&B' camp..

(and sorry, i'll try & keep future posts shorter!!)
 
Hi guys, new boy here. Used to post on the old OS forum til it mysteriously dissapeared & have been following the SZ forums ever since. This subject has finally made me register & get involved!

Richard, yes we stayed up for 6 years, and ended up in a huge financial mess which RM has thankfully dug us out of. It came about from paying huge wages & transfer fees (£500k for Mike Marsh, £400k for the very average Gary Poole to name a couple) that the club could not possibly afford or sustain. When we went down, we plummeted to the foot of the entire league with hardly a pause for breath, & stayed there for 5 years on the brink of financial extinction.

Personally, I can take a season or 2 of League 1 mediocrity if it stabilises us at this level. Momentum took us into the Championship & yes we probably weren't ready for it, & certainly didn't expect it. But the experience gained by T&B, RM and the players who've stayed is invaluable, and in my view it would be crazy to allow that experience to end up benefitting another club, because believe me if we let T&B go they wouldn't be out of work for long after what they've achieved at a smallish provincial club on a tight budget.

People need to be realistic. With our infrastructure / income / fanbase etc it would be a hard job for anyone to sustain Championship status. Even now we're probably punching above our weight.

Wouldn't it be ironic is T&B's finest moment turned out to be the very thing that ultimately gets them hounded out of the club, because supporters can't accept them not maintaining the unrealistic highs they managed to achieve against the odds.

As you can probably tell, i'm firmly in the 'keep T&B' camp..

(and sorry, i'll try & keep future posts shorter!!)

Spot on. Good post. Totally agree
 
Hi guys, new boy here. Used to post on the old OS forum til it mysteriously dissapeared & have been following the SZ forums ever since. This subject has finally made me register & get involved!

Richard, yes we stayed up for 6 years, and ended up in a huge financial mess which RM has thankfully dug us out of. It came about from paying huge wages & transfer fees (£500k for Mike Marsh, £400k for the very average Gary Poole to name a couple) that the club could not possibly afford or sustain. When we went down, we plummeted to the foot of the entire league with hardly a pause for breath, & stayed there for 5 years on the brink of financial extinction.

Personally, I can take a season or 2 of League 1 mediocrity if it stabilises us at this level. Momentum took us into the Championship & yes we probably weren't ready for it, & certainly didn't expect it. But the experience gained by T&B, RM and the players who've stayed is invaluable, and in my view it would be crazy to allow that experience to end up benefitting another club, because believe me if we let T&B go they wouldn't be out of work for long after what they've achieved at a smallish provincial club on a tight budget.

People need to be realistic. With our infrastructure / income / fanbase etc it would be a hard job for anyone to sustain Championship status. Even now we're probably punching above our weight.

Wouldn't it be ironic is T&B's finest moment turned out to be the very thing that ultimately gets them hounded out of the club, because supporters can't accept them not maintaining the unrealistic highs they managed to achieve against the odds.

As you can probably tell, i'm firmly in the 'keep T&B' camp..

(and sorry, i'll try & keep future posts shorter!!)

Welcome to the forum Rob - and please don't worry about keeping your posts short, Matt the Shrimp and I are often trying to write the follow up to War and Peace!

I quite agree with a lot of what you have said, and as I stated earlier, I am certainly not suggesting that Tilly and Brush be replace in any way, shape or form - I am merely suggesting that they should not be allowed to remain in place no matter what.

Do I think it is realistic to think we could sustain Championship football? Yes, I do actually. I don't think it would be easy, far from it, we would not be able to spend as much as some of the teams in that league, but can you honestly say that we got relegated last season purely because of a lack of resources? I don't think think that was the case at all, I think it was mainly for the reasons I suggested earlier - bad signings in the transfer market, and not through a lack of funds, and the decision to keep a perilously small squad, which I said at the time, would undoubtedly come back to haunt us when we needed it most - and it did.

Those were both failings by the management team, and whilst I fully accept no manager is perfect, or without the odd transfer howler, they still have to take responsibility for it.

I also believe they fully deserve the opportunity to put things right, and as such, should remain in place - but, they have to realise that the club as a whole has moved in since the not so heady days of League Two, and is now a larger animal with a larger fan base, larger resources, and as such, higher levels of expectations. The problem they now face is if we end up petering out this season, which I fear we may well do, what willhappen next season? The fan base will ineviatble shrink, and we will be heading back to square one - this is why I am so keen to maintain and build on recent successes, because if we don't, I fear it will take a long time to get them back.
 
I really just wish some-one would come up witha name for a replacement.....

I say Jose Mourinho - the only other name I have seen come up is....... who the effing hell is Simpson ?

No thanks - I don't want a Prem****e reject or some been round the block 3 times and failed to55er -

no its all ridiculous - until we are dealing with some sort of failure its Steve Tilson all the way -

even seeing this thread up really pi55es me off -

Tilson would have done a far better job than win nothing ever MacClaren -
 
Mel,you have to realise that this club is being shaken to it's core right now.
You think that things are going stagnant after the recent highs,well that was always going to happen!
When T+B took over we were facing financial ruin and for the fans to stare at the Conference and think that could be us in a couple of months brings home stark reality.
For that alone,if Tilson wishes to be top earner then he's fcuking deserved it more than any other at the club.

Now,i look at the relatively successful yoof team,i look at the quality in our reserve team,i look at the quality on our bench,i look at the ambition of the club's owner and of course the rubber-stamped 22,000 seater we will soon get the go-ahead for.

T+B have once again brought in quality,young players who will stay with the club for a while.Hungry players like Barnard and Macdonald,Scannel and Bailey.
I suspect the 'keeper we bought will replace both Flavs and Collis soon.

So come on,there IS significant progress and change at the club,they haven't just sp*nked all their money at the Championsh1te dream and in my eyes our club is on much better foundation.But listen,T+B WILL proceed to take this club forward but only with our support.
 
Hi guys, new boy here. Used to post on the old OS forum til it mysteriously dissapeared & have been following the SZ forums ever since. This subject has finally made me register & get involved!.....
....As you can probably tell, i'm firmly in the 'keep T&B' camp..

(and sorry, i'll try & keep future posts shorter!!)

Didn't want to quote your whole post, but that's a fine debut. Welcome aboard!
 
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