Whole squad on furlough - or not!

[Colchester and proud!]

It costs a lot more to live in Southend than many other league one towns.

Many players don't live in the area their club employer represents, I wouldn't be surprised if Luke Hyam still lives in Suffolk for example.

 

[GBJ]

So the players can't train at Boots & Laces as we can't afford to maintain it. Probably their biggest excersice at the moment is on the golf course. Yes I know they have been given fitness routines etc, but you get my point, hopefully. So all the players know through the Boots & Laces situation that the club is bang in trouble, helped by them. These players should realise that it's not just SUFC that has to survive, but lower League football has to try and survive, as it's in a terrible mess made much worse by the virus. Surely they can do their bit? Loads of clubs players have taken up the furlough. How sad that our bunch say no.

To play devils avacado for a minute, let’s say it was you in that position. What would you do?

You’re earning £16k a month. And from that £16k per month, you have to spend £10k of it, on bills & keeping a roof over your family’s head.

Over the course of the last six months, you have not been paid by your club on the agreed date, on (at least) two occasions, meaning you have had to explain to the bank why you can’t afford your mortgage repayment that month, or why you’re going to default on a car payment. Maybe you’re paying a mortgage on your parents house too, meaning that also gets missed. There’s a whole myriad of debts there that won’t be getting paid on the agreed date.

That’s a lot of phone calls, apologies & sleepless nights lost to money worries, which is solely down to the inability of your employer to do the basic act of honouring the contract that you signed in good faith.

And in the case of some, they’ve had to borrow more money to keep their heads above water, which of course further increases their debts.

I love this football club as much, if not more, than anyone else. But if that happened to me, I’d feel more than a little ****ed off tbh.

And that brings us upto now. Some people have this misconception, that the players will only be dropping 20% of their wages, which is wrong. A reduction from £16k down to £2500, is more along the lines of an 85% loss of earnings.

To put that into context, let’s say the average man in the street earns £2000 per month. If he also dropped 85%, his takehome would be £300.

How does anybody survive, pay bills, feed their families & keep roofs over their heads, on £300 a month? It’s impossible.

I’ll repeat, I love this club as much as anyone else here, but who would risk their families welfare & their homes?

Simple question; what would you do?

 

[GBJ]

How does the furlough situation work in the real world ie normal jobs.

If employees decide not to be furloughed, does the employer have the right to terminate their employment?

If so, could Ron not just sack anyone who won't be furloughed.

As I understand it, it’s not so much a right to terminate a contract, but redundancy would likely be issued in most cases.

I don’t think Ron can sack anyone, firstly because they have contracts and secondly because the minute he fired them, he’d be looking to hire someone new, which I believe goes against the concept of redundancy, and would lead to disciplinary & possibly criminal repercussions

Happy to be corrected on those points, if I’m wrong.

 

[Westcliff DGS]

As I understand it, it’s not so much a right to terminate a contract, but redundancy would likely be issued in most cases.

I don’t think Ron can sack anyone, firstly because they have contracts and secondly because the minute he fired them, he’d be looking to hire someone new, which I believe goes against the concept of redundancy, and would lead to disciplinary & possibly criminal repercussions

Happy to be corrected on those points, if I’m wrong.

If you a make a redundancy you make the role redundantly and cannot replace in that same role for a certain period of time.

 

[GBJ]

If you a make a redundancy you make the role redundantly and cannot replace in that same role for a certain period of time.

That’s what I thought, so the idea of making a professional footballer, on your professional football team, redundant, is a non-starter

 

[Westcliff DGS]

To play devils avacado for a minute, let’s say it was you in that position. What would you do?

You’re earning £16k a month. And from that £16k per month, you have to spend £10k of it, on bills & keeping a roof over your family’s head.

Over the course of the last six months, you have not been paid by your club on the agreed date, on (at least) two occasions, meaning you have had to explain to the bank why you can’t afford your mortgage repayment that month, or why you’re going to default on a car payment. Maybe you’re paying a mortgage on your parents house too, meaning that also gets missed. There’s a whole myriad of debts there that won’t be getting paid on the agreed date.

That’s a lot of phone calls, apologies & sleepless nights lost to money worries, which is solely down to the inability of your employer to do the basic act of honouring the contract that you signed in good faith.

And in the case of some, they’ve had to borrow more money to keep their heads above water, which of course further increases their debts.

I love this football club as much, if not more, than anyone else. But if that happened to me, I’d feel more than a little ****ed off tbh.

And that brings us upto now. Some people have this misconception, that the players will only be dropping 20% of their wages, which is wrong. A reduction from £16k down to £2500, is more along the lines of an 85% loss of earnings.

To put that into context, let’s say the average man in the street earns £2000 per month. If he also dropped 85%, his takehome would be £300.

How does anybody survive, pay bills, feed their families & keep roofs over their heads, on £300 a month? It’s impossible.

I’ll repeat, I love this club as much as anyone else here, but who would risk their families welfare & their homes?

Simple question; what would you do?

I am having to do this this week, i will lose 40% of my salary or be let go. I work for a club not the club I support but still in the game. The players situation is strange, some says the PFA need to be involved, yet players and clubs have agreed things outside of them in some cases. As GBJ and I discussed here last week it is a big drop and I understand why they may not want too, in the end they will have to make a decision as they will either put the club in jeopardy over the period where the is no football sand no bailout from the EFL (even though they have been given 125 million) and this not be paid anything, or they will find a way to compromise maybe with a wage deferral.

My understanding is that some players would have accepted it (the lower earners below 2.5k) but they squad stuck together and came back as one and said we cant accept this as a squad. They may now be dealt with individually but obviously thats a guess as I am not inside the club

 

[Holy Joe]

That’s what I thought, so the idea of making a professional footballer, on your professional football team, redundant, is a non-starter

Unless you were reducing your squad size, then the role would be redundant

 

[Yorkshire Blue]

There’s nothing in the furlough “rules” preventing Sol or his staff from contacting players or other employees on non-work matters, such as checking in on their fitness and well being.

Checking on fitness would certainly be a work related matter.

Legal advice though may vary from employer to employer. Some may be instructing no contact with staff whatsoever.

Where the furlough is more contentious (as is the case here) employers are more likely to advise managers to be more cautious about and even avoid contacting employees.

How does the furlough situation work in the real world ie normal jobs.

If employees decide not to be furloughed, does the employer have the right to terminate their employment?

If so, could Ron not just sack anyone who won't be furloughed.

In the real world people accept furlough as an alternative to redundancy. The idea is that they accept a short term loss to ensure their long term employment. But football is fixed term contracts. Many of the players being furloughed won't expect to be here in a month or two's time. They don't have skin in the game. A short term loss is therefore just a short term loss with no longer term upside.

Maybe the alternative is to run an argument that contracts have been frustrated. The consequence of that would be all players to become free agents - but that would mean losing out on vital income for Kelman and Bwomono's transfer fees.

I actually expect the argument is more over whether payments are delayed or forgotten about. Ron's previous attempts at furloughing - and why did he only try and furlough 7 players? - the wording was qualified so as to make it inevitable that there would be no repayment.

 

[Holy Joe]

To play devils avacado for a minute, let’s say it was you in that position. What would you do?

You’re earning £16k a month. And from that £16k per month, you have to spend £10k of it, on bills & keeping a roof over your family’s head.

Over the course of the last six months, you have not been paid by your club on the agreed date, on (at least) two occasions, meaning you have had to explain to the bank why you can’t afford your mortgage repayment that month, or why you’re going to default on a car payment. Maybe you’re paying a mortgage on your parents house too, meaning that also gets missed. There’s a whole myriad of debts there that won’t be getting paid on the agreed date.

That’s a lot of phone calls, apologies & sleepless nights lost to money worries, which is solely down to the inability of your employer to do the basic act of honouring the contract that you signed in good faith.

And in the case of some, they’ve had to borrow more money to keep their heads above water, which of course further increases their debts.

I love this football club as much, if not more, than anyone else. But if that happened to me, I’d feel more than a little ****ed off tbh.

And that brings us upto now. Some people have this misconception, that the players will only be dropping 20% of their wages, which is wrong. A reduction from £16k down to £2500, is more along the lines of an 85% loss of earnings.

To put that into context, let’s say the average man in the street earns £2000 per month. If he also dropped 85%, his takehome would be £300.

How does anybody survive, pay bills, feed their families & keep roofs over their heads, on £300 a month? It’s impossible.

I’ll repeat, I love this club as much as anyone else here, but who would risk their families welfare & their homes?

Simple question; what would you do?

If I were a League One footballer and I had outgoings of £10k per month, I think I'd feel a little insecure even in normal times - not exactly the most secure of occupations.

 

[kentblues]

There are a couple of other things to throw into the mix.
There is talk that wage caps will apply for next season and max squad sizes- in L2 suggested £1.5m pa and max 20 players. You would think there will be transition arrangements as you move from L1 to L2 for example as it is probably impossible to trim from say £2.5m cap in L1 to L2 cap in one season (even the EFL probably understand contracts often run for two or more years and can't just be broken). But its difficult to see how this can't also affect the retained lists making the situation for now even worse for player contracts..

 

[Mad Cyril]

Many players don't live in the area their club employer represents, I wouldn't be surprised if Luke Hyam still lives in Suffolk for example.

Yes but he has a Southend image to maintain.

 

[GBJ]

I actually expect the argument is more over whether payments are delayed or forgotten about. Ron's previous attempts at furloughing - and why did he only try and furlough 7 players? - the wording was qualified so as to make it inevitable that there would be no repayment.

Ding ding ding! Finally, someone has sussed it.

It’s my understanding, that the initial seven players rejected furlough under advice of the PFA.

I don’t think the letter that was printed by the Echo, was the one that the players agreed to.

The second furlough agreement that was drafted up, had a couple of stipulations in it, which the players accepted, and subsequently signed.

I believe that if the current players were offered the same stipulations, they would also sign - albeit begrudgingly.

If I were a League One footballer and I had outgoings of £10k per month, I think I'd feel a little insecure even in normal times - not exactly the most secure of occupations.

For sure. What is the general career expectancy for a professional footballer at the top of his game? 10 years?

It’s why so many of them take out short-term mortgages, with massive monthly repayments, so they can get it paid off as quickly as possible.

 

[GBJ]

There are a couple of other things to throw into the mix.
There is talk that wage caps will apply for next season and max squad sizes- in L2 suggested £1.5m pa and max 20 players. You would think there will be transition arrangements as you move from L1 to L2 for example as it is probably impossible to trim from say £2.5m cap in L1 to L2 cap in one season (even the EFL probably understand contracts often run for two or more years and can't just be broken). But its difficult to see how this can't also affect the retained lists making the situation for now even worse for player contracts..

Question - would this wage cap include management?

Because if it ends up being £2.5m, thats almost half of it gone on Sol and the gang

 

[Tommy2holes]

All I'm interested in, is that we have a club to support next season.

If that means we lose one and all then so be it. The club is more important than any individuals.

If we have to start pre season with just a handful of youth and recruit journeymen on much reduced wages, then I'll be OK with that.

The salary cap has been a long time coming. Some of the wages in the third tier are rediculous.

I hope that after the dust has settled on the whole covid 19 fiasco, clubs have a much more balanced and workable future.

 

[kentblues]

Question - would this wage cap include management?

Because if it ends up being £2.5m, thats almost half of it gone on Sol and the gang

I believe players only, the limit on squad numbers refers to players only not coaching staff I think. But then at this stage its a suggestion even if there appears to be some desire to bring it in for next season. But its something else in the mix for sure.

 

[Westcliff DGS]

Question - would this wage cap include management?

Because if it ends up being £2.5m, thats almost half of it gone on Sol and the gang

As I have understood the brief discussions around this it would be a cap over your first team squad which would be limited to a certain number of players (discussions have said 20 or 22 so far, thats from memory as not been in since Wednesday last week). Suggestions have been to exclude youth team salaries and coaching staff, and obviously anyone not on the footballing side (back office etc) are not included

 

[GBJ]

All I'm interested in, is that we have a club to support next season.

If that means we lose one and all then so be it. The club is more important than any individuals.

If we have to start pre season with just a handful of youth and recruit journeymen on much reduced wages, then I'll be OK with that.

The salary cap has been a long time coming. Some of the wages in the third tier are rediculous.

I hope that after the dust has settled on the whole covid 19 fiasco, clubs have a much more balanced and workable future.

I mentioned the other day, that there is now a small - but very real - chance that we could start next season with minus points, and an entire squad of new players/management.

That to me, is quite concerning.

Ron needs to address this situation, fast.

 

[Yorkshire Blue]

All I'm interested in, is that we have a club to support next season.

If that means we lose one and all then so be it. The club is more important than any individuals.

I'm resigned to us selling Kelman and Bwomono this off-season.

My fear is that if we are unable to sell them (i.e. they walk like the Macclesfield lads) we won't have a club any more.

Unfortunately the more distressed we are, the cheaper the vultures will be able to get Kelman for.

 

[Tommy2holes]

Well Kelman, elvis, humphrys and Hutchinson are all under 24. We would be entitled to payments for all of them.

 

[jarvisyeh]

To play devils avacado for a minute, let’s say it was you in that position. What would you do?

You’re earning £16k a month. And from that £16k per month, you have to spend £10k of it, on bills & keeping a roof over your family’s head.

Over the course of the last six months, you have not been paid by your club on the agreed date, on (at least) two occasions, meaning you have had to explain to the bank why you can’t afford your mortgage repayment that month, or why you’re going to default on a car payment. Maybe you’re paying a mortgage on your parents house too, meaning that also gets missed. There’s a whole myriad of debts there that won’t be getting paid on the agreed date.

That’s a lot of phone calls, apologies & sleepless nights lost to money worries, which is solely down to the inability of your employer to do the basic act of honouring the contract that you signed in good faith.

And in the case of some, they’ve had to borrow more money to keep their heads above water, which of course further increases their debts.

I love this football club as much, if not more, than anyone else. But if that happened to me, I’d feel more than a little ****ed off tbh.

And that brings us upto now. Some people have this misconception, that the players will only be dropping 20% of their wages, which is wrong. A reduction from £16k down to £2500, is more along the lines of an 85% loss of earnings.

To put that into context, let’s say the average man in the street earns £2000 per month. If he also dropped 85%, his takehome would be £300.

How does anybody survive, pay bills, feed their families & keep roofs over their heads, on £300 a month? It’s impossible.

I’ll repeat, I love this club as much as anyone else here, but who would risk their families welfare & their homes?

Simple question; what would you do?

I'm going to comment on this before I've read through the rest of the thread so apologies if anyone has mentioned this already.

I went from earning £1400(ISH) a month to £0 because of Covid. That's a 100% drop. They should count themselves lucky they will be able to get as much as furlough can offer.

If they are in trouble financially they can also take a 3 month mortgage holiday (something I had to do) and hope furlough will cover the rest of the debts they have. (Something I haven't had to worry about because aside from my mortgage and a 0% credit card I live within my means)

Surely they have two options here, the first is to accept furlough and get something, the second is to reject furlough and get nothing as the club can't afford to pay them.