Can we just think about this please?

[steveo]

Many people believe the Club have been mis-managed by the same "well-educated and successful businessman". What is your take on that?

Mis-managed in what way? Ron has given money to the manager and apparently has left the playing side to the managers judgement.

It doesnt appear that Ron is taking a fortune from the Club in the form of a salary. Perhaps this club cannot sustain a place in the current division with the players we can afford.

Maybe the manager is at fault for spending the money badly.

 

[GBJ]

Lol.. ok

He holds A, K, Q and J. We've had the flop and the turn, he's gone all in and is waiting for the 10 at the river.

Seriously though, I don't think he's bluffing. More hoping, but it is something I believe he has an element of control over. It may not come off - but he'll stand to lose as much, if not more, than we will in that scenario. There won't be any consortium in the wings to bail him out.

What! You can't be waiting for 1 card on the river!! He has a maximum 2% chance of hitting it!

Maybe you're right. He could be waiting and hoping, but it's the degree of control that worries me. Don't forget we're talking about the future of SUFC. It's too big a gamble to just wait and hope it all works out. If we go bust, there is nothing to stop Ron building his Dreamworld at FF. I know he has to build a football stadium before the other gubbings, but what's to stop him building a scatty 4k seater stadium for a few million, then plod on with the rest of his plans. Afterall, he's fulfilled his agreements with the council to build a football stadium. Ron won't lose as much as we will. As you said, he's a smart guy. Do you honesty think he'd let the FF dream go pear-shaped?

 

[Beefy]

The trouble with all this is that without knowing where we are with getting on site at the new ground we don't know whether Ron is being reckless and completely mismanaging events, or whether he's performing some of the most brilliant business ball-juggling in history.

 

[OldBlueLady]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sF0K-Vq1pRA&feature=related

I refer you to 0.21 on the above track Nik, never a truer sentiment applied to us atm.

 

[fbm]

What! You can't be waiting for 1 card on the river!! He has a maximum 2% chance of hitting it!

Maybe you're right. He could be waiting and hoping, but it's the degree of control that worries me. Don't forget we're talking about the future of SUFC. It's too big a gamble to just wait and hope it all works out. If we go bust, there is nothing to stop Ron building his Dreamworld at FF. I know he has to build a football stadium before the other gubbings, but what's to stop him building a scatty 4k seater stadium for a few million, then plod on with the rest of his plans. Afterall, he's fulfilled his agreements with the council to build a football stadium. Ron won't lose as much as we will. As you said, he's a smart guy. Do you honesty think he'd let the FF dream go pear-shaped?

Lol... I know.

There is no way he would allow FF to go pear shaped. He may not have the choice - that's the issue.

 

[GBJ]

Mis-managed in what way? Ron has given money to the manager and apparently has left the playing side to the managers judgement.

It doesnt appear that Ron is taking a fortune from the Club in the form of a salary. Perhaps this club cannot sustain a place in the current division with the players we can afford.

Maybe the manager is at fault for spending the money badly.

For what Tilly has spent badly, (£1m?) he has recouped greatly in the forms of Eastwood, Bailey, JCR to name a few.

It's not upto the manager to decide a wage structure, and whether or not that will be abided to. We know (yet some still won't believe) our wage structure is very high, and has been since the CCC season. We were living beyond our means. Surely the main man has to take responsibility?

It's also not upto the manager to decide how much he spends on players. We had an example last year or Tilly and Brush putting a reasonable figure on Theo Robinson, but the Chairman decided to raise that figure. Could this have been the case with other players in the past?

It was The Board who splashed the big cash on the Stadium Plans

 

[Crabby Shrimper]

Obviously I don't know all the ins and outs, but just putting this forward as an idea.

Didn't Ron say, ages back, that once building work starts funds will be released? I'm just wondering whether the fact he's spending season ticket money (ie next seasons income) could mean he believes that building work WILL start this summer, and will therefore release some funds to cover us for next season.

Obviously this is guesswork, but a possibility?

 

[GBJ]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sF0K-Vq1pRA&feature=related

I refer you to 0.21 on the above track Nik, never a truer sentiment applied to us atm.

To which i will refer you to this, the opening line is especially for us...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-X9VEcQEo0I


:)

 

[devonexile]

I also don't think he's got any financial need to come back so the question is would he do it simply for love of the club and the supporters? I've said all along I think Ron knew this would be a hard season, but not quite as hard as it has been. It was always going to be about tightening the belts and I think the squad needed to be down to bare bones with just a handful of "luxury" players, if that's the right word in this context. I firmly believe this WILL all be sorted out and that people just need to ride the storm for a little longer.

Well your close to the heart of the Trust so I just hope your "WILL" is right

 

[OldBlueLady]

Well your close to the heart of the Trust so I just hope your "WILL" is right

That's nothing to do with the Trust, it's my personal view and one I've expressed since before becoming a committee member.

 

[Bob Cratchitt]

Fbm I hope you are right, in the past I have been happy with the way the club was being run. Two things that have worried me prior to the recent court hearings.

a) Ron became too besotted with the club, which you may think strange but he seemed to be letting his heart rule his head, which IMHO is why we find ourselves in this mess, as he broke his rules regarding wage structure that he brought Webby in last time to sort out.

b) I know we all think that the stadium is going to save us but we still do not know whether SUFC are just going to be tenants to one of Ron's other companies which for me is not a great situation for the club to be in.

This recent situation is very worring and in the words of the administrators @ Portsmouth said today, 'the players for a football club is the most important asset they have'. So for us to go so long without paying them does strike me as good planning

 

[C C Csiders]

If all is rosy and all will be well in the end and we arrive at the new stadium etc. I will fellate RM and GK in the centre circle of Fossetts Farm. For now, however, it looks 99.9% like we are being taken for mugs and are about to be taken up the jacksi by Big John Holmes.

 

[leeblue]

Look, this is not a pro Ron, blue tinted (or should I say blue rinsed with that hair!) statement and I, like many others have been feeling increasingly disillusioned at the off field events of this season.

But one thing is blatantly obvious - we have no idea of actually what is going on behind the scenes!

As I have said before, if Ron is the crook and antichrist so many people think then there are several things that do not make sense here.

1) Ron Martin is a well educated and successful businessman. Therefore he will know that to spend next years season ticket sales in advance without having a plan on how to survive next year is just nonsensical and totally irresponsible financial planning. You cannot run any sort of business, let alone a property company, by employing such tactics. Property developers are probably the most financially astute businessmen around. We should actually be quite grateful we have someone with that level of knowledge and expertise at the helm.

2) There is absolutely no point is raising £2.1m to pay off a debt if we are going to go into administration a few weeks or months later. There is a reasonable school of thought that says he would not be able to outbid the consortium and would lose control but, as I understand it, if the club was owned by someone else he still owns the land and then would be the clubs landlord (of both RH and FF) with no vested interest in keeping the club alive so could milk the club for all it's worth, possibly even sending it into administration again and then buying it back.

3) He was happy we got the stay of execution today. Being a successful businessman isn't always about being open, honest and up front as then, in bad times, you can't get what you want. You have to be brash, sharp, decisive and generally not show your hand too much. It's a bit like a poker match. You never win anything by playing just the good hands and folding the rest. It's all about bluff and making your opponents think you have a stronger hand than you actually have. We would have probably gone under already under the control of many other owners.

4) Whilst the staff are clearly not happy at the wages issue, they still are giving everything for the club. If there was nothing on the horizon they would have given up or jumped ship long ago.

5) Webby isn't an idiot. He would not have come back unless there was something in it for a) him and b) the club.


All in all, there are many pieces of the jigsaw we don't and will never have but the signs are (to me, anyway) is that we are holding the enemy off until the cavalry arrives - and they are on their way.

Now, having said that, they may not arrive in time. But that is a wholly different scenario to there being no cavalry at all, which just doesn't add up for the reasons I have stated above.

So - it's tough, may get tougher BUT I do believe that it will all come good in the end - otherwise none of the actions taken so far make any sense at all.

this is how I see it, ron and CO have put too much in to not be sure of returns, it is as simpl as that, the playing side is suffering though due to chasing the dream of FF and that as a footy fan and not a property development fan makes this herd hard time difficult to swallow

 

[steveo]

For what Tilly has spent badly, (£1m?) he has recouped greatly in the forms of Eastwood, Bailey, JCR to name a few.

Maybe the money coming in has had to be used to run the club. Lets face it, Foran, Paynter, Revel, Walker...all big money losses the Club could ill afford.

Everyone blames Ron but shouldnt people be looking at the manager?

 

[GBJ]

Maybe the money coming in has had to be used to run the club. Lets face it, Foran, Paynter, Revel, Walker...all big money losses the Club could ill afford.

Everyone blames Ron but shouldnt people be looking at the manager?

That money coming in, probably has gone towards running the club. But you'd argue that if the wage structure was/had of been within our budget, that transfer money might not have had to be used towards the running of the club. We've had big cup games, televised games, trips to Cardiff and most importantly, a consistent gate of 8k-10k. This alone should have been enough to see us through, but with the wage structure being ridiculously high, i suspect we've had to use transfer revenue to help with the general running and that STILL hasn't been enough to cope with it.

Tilly doesn't control the wage structure, therefore in my mind, you can't put blame on him. The finance department and effectively the main man at the top is responsible of the running (business side) of the club. Tilly isn't a business man, he's a footballing man. It's not his job to make sure the club run profitaby, or even at a 'break even' point. It's the Main man's job. As FBM said, Ron is (ment to be) a very astute business man, so surely he should/would have had a plan in place, where the club operate at a level, where incidents like we find ourselves in today, don't occur. Yet surprisingly, we find ourselves in this position. I can only suggest there was never a 'plan' in place, or, more likely, said plan has been thrown out of the window due to our surprising success. Not Ron's fault from a 'football fans' perspective (by that i mean Ron's been swept up in the glory and has got carried away a bit), but from a business perspective it's detrimental. And Ron is first and foremost, a Business man running a company. The head MUST rule instad of the heart.

As a manager, when it comes to transfers you have to take the rough with the smooth. Of course Tilly has brought in players who haven't worked out. But similarly Tilly has brought in players that have been extremely successfull. If those players hadn't been such worthy assets, our financial situation could be even worse (if that's possible)

Ok these players were flops, but at the same time it wasn't Tilly who decided what wages these players they should be on. Tilly simply identifies a player, then it's upto Ron to do the rest.

Tilly has no blame what-so-ever for the financial turmoil we're in, IMHO, purely because, as i said, he's not a business man in control of a company.

 

[chapperzUK]

Fbm I hope you are right, in the past I have been happy with the way the club was being run. Two things that have worried me prior to the recent court hearings.

a) Ron became to besotted with the club, which you may think strange but he seemed to be letting his heart rule his head, which IMHO is why we find ourselves in this mess, as he broke his rules regarding wage structure that he brought Webby in last time to sort out.

b) I know we all think that the stadium is going to save us but we still do not know whether SUFC are just going to tenants to one of Ron's other companies which for me is not a great situation fir the club to be in.

This recent situation is very worring and in the words of the administrators @ Portsmouth said today, 'the players for a football club is the most important asset they have'. So for us to go so long without paying them does strike me as good planning

.... or in our case, the ONLY assets we have.

 

[GBJ]

.... or in our case, the ONLY assets we have.

Not even sure you could call them that tbh. What is our total squad worth? £20 and a pack of Rolo's?

 

[chapperzUK]

Not even sure you could call them that tbh. What is our total squad worth? £20 and a pack of Rolo's?

I'm sure OBL will pay a lot for Macca ;)

 

[Yorkshire Blue]

Anythings possible at the moment - but RMgraysblue.jr admitting he's ****ed upRon Martin might be right??

;)

What! You can't be waiting for 1 card on the river!! He has a maximum 2% chance of hitting it!

It's a higher possibility than that: it can be a 10 of any suit, so any one of four different cards that can save the day.

However the odds are better than 4 out of 52, because the cards already drawn aren't going to be drawn again. Assuming it is Texas Hold'em, that's 52 less 2 for the hand, 3 for the flop and 1 for the turn. It is therefore a 4 in 46 chance (an 8.70% chance).

There, I've just more than quadrupled our chances of survival. Let's hope Ron's dodgy maths when it comes to working out how much we owed the tax man can do the same for us.


FWIW, I like the poker analogy. When Ron joined the game, he was short-stacked. He had some early good results, which may have produced the illusion that things were going well, but he was always behind. He's trying to hang in there, but the small and large blinds are now rapidly eating away at his chips. He has to gamble and go all in (Fossetts Farm), because whilst we (the club) might get wiped out if the cards don't fall our way, the alternative will see us wiped out as well. So whilst the odds of that 10 falling for us don't appeal all that attractive, the numbers look more appealing than letting the large blind swallow up the last remaining chips. Fortunately, if we can survive this round (which we did and buying ourselves another 35 days to pay), we're now dealing, so we don't have to pay the blind until it next comes round the table (this is because of the season ticket renewals that are now due in). This gives us another couple of hands (ie months) to choose when to go all-in. It's not ideal, but it increases your chances a little.

 

[Bielzibubz]

If all is rosy and all will be well in the end and we arrive at the new stadium etc. I will fellate RM and GK in the centre circle of Fossetts Farm. For now, however, it looks 99.9% like we are being taken for mugs and are about to be taken up the jacksi by Big John Holmes.

And some people call the media sensationalist, Jesus! Taken for mugs in what way exactly? Do you feel cheated and taken for a ride because you don't know all the facts as to why we now find ourselves in this perilous position?

As FBM has pointed out there are many many questions about past dealings surrounding SUFC and the reasons things have panned out this way that we will never know the answers to and to suggest that we have all been hood winked by RM and that this is all part of some master plan to shaft the club is, quite frankly, laughable.

Yes things have gone completely pear shaped over the last twelve to eighteen months but for Christ sake keep things in perspective.

1. Is the club completely skint cash flow wise? Yes.
2. Have we a transfer embargo in place preventing us from strengthening the squad? Yes.
3. Do we have 35 days to find nie on half a million quid to prevent us going into administration? Yes.
4. Are we three losses away from nie on certain relegation? Yes.

but........

5. Is RM in the final stages of putting together a finance package that will enable building work on FF to start and release cash for the club? Yes.
6. Are the players giving it 100% on the pitch? Yes.
7. Would Dave Webb have even considered coming back to SUFC if he seriously thought we were doomed to relegation and ultimate closure? No.
8. Would RM, RHL and more importantly Sainsbury's (£2.1m to HMRC) invested so much time and cash into the future of the club just to let it all come crashing down at this late stage? No.

The list for and against is huge but if you weigh up everything with a cool head and leave emotion out of it then perhaps you might find your glass half full rather than constantly half empty.

Phil