For those who believe that the founding ideology of America

[Lord Football]

An unusual tactic for the left - claiming intellectual superiority over the right. You think I can't debate a Godless commie punk like you and an illiterate like Osy? Americans don't travel abroad as much as Europeans because they don't need to. They have mountains, beaches, deserts and whores within their own borders. They're also more self-confident about their nationality and haven't been so apologetic about national identity as so many pantywaist Europeans. They don't fear other nations, they just don't care about them (other than in charitable donations, where the US leads the world in giving per capita by some margin).

History will be far kinder to Dubya than it will be to Obama, whose approval ratings are going downhill faster than a Georgian luger. He doesn't understand the reality of the USA's responsibilities as the world's only military superpower, and what you describe as aggression and colonialism, I regard as responsible stewardship of the security status quo. Do we really want the USA to sit on the sidelines whilst Iran acquires nuclear armaments, or would we rather they crushed Ahmadinejad like a bug? I'd be interested to hear your views on that. Obama also doesn't understand the realities of macroeconomics, but I know you don't either so let's leave that well alone.

As for McCarthyism? Don't believe everything George Clooney wants you to believe. After the fall of the Soviet empire, Yeltsin released many archived documents to the Western press, documents which proved that many of these 'poor victims' were spies and traitors to their country. It's become accepted that the HUAC hearings were akin to the Soviet show trials but subsequent evidence has shown that McCarthy was on to something.

And one last point.

Behave yourself.

I wont stoop to the personal insults. The key there is "they just don't care about them". I couldn't have said it better myself, and it is one of the reasons why the US is internationally unpopular with many. They didn't care at Kyoto, preferring to put oil dollars ahead of climate reform. They don't care about the civilian populations of Iraq or Afghanistan, whom they habitually slaughter. They didn't care about Europe in 1939 and only got involved when it happened to them. They don't care about the populations of Central or South America, only about whether their leaders are politically friendly to them. They didn't care about the populations of Cuba, Iran or Iraq when moving motions at the UN to bring in sanctions that in effect only crippled the ordinary people. They didn't care about the civilians napalmed in Vietnam. And they didn't care about the UK during the Falklands conflict. But I'll thank you for making that point for me, and allowing me to expand on it.

You can't foretell what the history books will say. My view is different to yours, and its hard to judge a President who is a 1/4 way through his first term.

My reference to McCarthyism isn't George Clooney, please give me more credit than that. Suggest you read The Crucible by Arthur Miller, if you haven't already. Suggest you watch Chaplin, if you haven't already. Suggest you read the Congress Report that finally shut the madman down.

Still no discussion on the Soviet system, or are you considering that as an away fixture you'd not rather have?

And more thing...

I'll behave myself when you do.

 

[Rusty Shackleford]

They don't care about the civilian populations of Iraq or Afghanistan, whom they habitually slaughter.

That is a contemptible remark, even by your standards. I'll return later to mock your other ramblings, but for now, I have to work. Yes, work. Look it up if you have to.

 

[Rusty Shackleford]

I wont stoop to the personal insults. The key there is "they just don't care about them". I couldn't have said it better myself, and it is one of the reasons why the US is internationally unpopular with many.

The US is unpopular with people like you because they had the temerity to stand up against, and defeat, your pet project of Communism. It also has to contend with a common motive for hatred – jealousy. When you’re the only alpha dog on the block, people will hate you, especially when they are snivelling stray cats without the means or the nerve for a scrap.

They didn't care at Kyoto, preferring to put oil dollars ahead of climate reform.

Kyoto was a joke. And it’s becoming clearer that the whole global warming scare is the biggest scam since the Southend United Loan Club rip-off. If you’re really upset about pollution, take it up with the Chinese.

They don't care about the civilian populations of Iraq or Afghanistan, whom they habitually slaughter. They didn't care about Europe in 1939 and only got involved when it happened to them.

The US Military aren’t slaughtering civilians in Iraq and Afghanistan by the thousand. That’s being done by Islamist pigs like the Taliban, who need to be eradicated. The US don’t plant IEDs in market squares or strap bombs to their children. Whatever your opinions on the reasons for the Iraq War, Saddam Hussein was replaced by a democratically elected government. Tell me how that’s a bad thing?

Your crack about World War II reeks of double standards. Do you want them to get involved in wars or not? If they had turned up in Europe in 1939, US haters like your good self would have told them to mind their own business.

They don't care about the populations of Central or South America, only about whether their leaders are politically friendly to them. They didn't care about the populations of Cuba, Iran or Iraq when moving motions at the UN to bring in sanctions that in effect only crippled the ordinary people. They didn't care about the civilians napalmed in Vietnam. And they didn't care about the UK during the Falklands conflict. But I'll thank you for making that point for me, and allowing me to expand on it.

In each case, the US pursued foreign policies they considered to be in their own best interests. Remind me of a country of any consequence that doesn’t operate in that way. And don’t get so angry with the Americans for the suffering in Cuba and Iran – look to the dictatorial leaders of those nations first. Cubans can’t wait to escape Fidel’s socialist paradise and take their chances on an inner tube ride to Key West.

You can't foretell what the history books will say. My view is different to yours, and its hard to judge a President who is a 1/4 way through his first term.

My reference to McCarthyism isn't George Clooney, please give me more credit than that. Suggest you read The Crucible by Arthur Miller, if you haven't already. Suggest you watch Chaplin, if you haven't already. Suggest you read the Congress Report that finally shut the madman down.

I suggest you read something about the Venona Project. Of course I’ve read ‘The Crucible’. Have you read anything that doesn’t conform to your worldview?

Still no discussion on the Soviet system, or are you considering that as an away fixture you'd rather have?

Is this the same Soviet system that murdered millions of its own people, and was then routed by the US capitalists? Yeah, I’ll discuss it with you.

 

[osymandus]

An unusual tactic for the left - claiming intellectual superiority over the right. You think I can't debate a Godless commie punk like you and an illiterate like Osy? Americans don't travel abroad as much as Europeans because they don't need to. They have mountains, beaches, deserts and whores within their own borders. They're also more self-confident about their nationality and haven't been so apologetic about national identity as so many pantywaist Europeans. They don't fear other nations, they just don't care about them (other than in charitable donations, where the US leads the world in giving per capita by some margin).

History will be far kinder to Dubya than it will be to Obama, whose approval ratings are going downhill faster than a Georgian luger. He doesn't understand the reality of the USA's responsibilities as the world's only military superpower, and what you describe as aggression and colonialism, I regard as responsible stewardship of the security status quo. Do we really want the USA to sit on the sidelines whilst Iran acquires nuclear armaments, or would we rather they crushed Ahmadinejad like a bug? I'd be interested to hear your views on that. Obama also doesn't understand the realities of macroeconomics, but I know you don't either so let's leave that well alone.

As for McCarthyism? Don't believe everything George Clooney wants you to believe. After the fall of the Soviet empire, Yeltsin released many archived documents to the Western press, documents which proved that many of these 'poor victims' were spies and traitors to their country. It's become accepted that the HUAC hearings were akin to the Soviet show trials but subsequent evidence has shown that McCarthy was on to something.

And one last point.

Behave yourself.

Why your claiming were coming at you from some angel of intellectual superiority is a reflection of your method of argument.

History judges by deeds not opinion polls , the only people that care about teh approval ratings are Americas at the time of their president's , and to say on the one hand that the states is a self contain unified whole when each state can almost be accurately described as countries and cultures within themselves, and then say they had the right to use this unified ideology of morals to help police the rest of teh world (go Team America btw ) , is verging on the insane. It's Hoover and Macarthian rhetoric at its worse , a blinked isolation view , near paranoia view of yourself and teh world around you . Alpha dog ?? WTF if you want to use that anology please understand dogs had to evolve as a group because their rubbish hunters solo, they also run down generally the sickest member of their prey .

The US and coalition militarise have been blamed by the Red Cross for the killing of thousands of civilians (4,500 in 2009 from the red cross http://web.mit.edu/humancostiraq/).
America had an aggressive foreign policy since 1890 when they wanted to usurp the British Empire, thats nothing new all countries as you say do it.
Hence why the backlash comes a few decades later from the other countries used as pawns by the "superpowers" of their day decide to emulate their "betters"

Its moraly right when you strike first ? Becuase you believe you have some divine providence telling you it is ? Or because you know someone will attack and you want to get the first blow in ?

 

[Dick Bate's Protege]

Why your claiming were coming at you from some angel of intellectual superiority is a reflection of your method of argument.

History judges by deeds not opinion polls , the only people that care about teh approval ratings are Americas at the time of their president's , and to say on the one hand that the states is a self contain unified whole when each state can almost be accurately described as countries and cultures within themselves, and then say they had the right to use this unified ideology of morals to help police the rest of teh world (go Team America btw ) , is verging on the insane. It's Hoover and Macarthian rhetoric at its worse , a blinked isolation view , near paranoia view of yourself and teh world around you . Alpha dog ?? WTF if you want to use that anology please understand dogs had to evolve as a group because their rubbish hunters solo, they also run down generally the sickest member of their prey .

The US and coalition militarise have been blamed by the Red Cross for the killing of thousands of civilians (4,500 in 2009 from the red cross http://web.mit.edu/humancostiraq/).
America had an aggressive foreign policy since 1890 when they wanted to usurp the British Empire, thats nothing new all countries as you say do it.
Hence why the backlash comes a few decades later from the other countries used as pawns by the "superpowers" of their day decide to emulate their "betters"

Its moraly right when you strike first ? Becuase you believe you have some divine providence telling you it is ? Or because you know someone will attack and you want to get the first blow in ?

No it's not morally right when you strike first due to some divine providence telling you it is. That's why the Coalitions continued pursuit of ******* terrorists is ok by me.

 

[osymandus]

No it's not morally right when you strike first due to some divine providence telling you it is. That's why the Coalitions continued pursuit of ******* terrorists is ok by me.

You do enjoy taking sentences out of context (a big favourite of the Daily Mail i notice), every "superpower" has used this as justification at sometime . We know it's aborant yet it is still done. We are not arguing if terrorist are bad or not (its kind of self explanatory answer there really ), just how a moral superiority can be automatically claimed just by declaring yourselves the worlds good guys, by your own set of moral's

 

[Dick Bate's Protege]

You do enjoy taking sentences out of context (a big favourite of the Daily Mail i notice), every "superpower" has used this as justification at sometime . We know it's aborant yet it is still done. We are not arguing if terrorist are bad or not (its kind of self explanatory answer there really ), just how a moral superiority can be automatically claimed just by declaring yourselves the worlds good guys, by your own set of moral's

Chemical Ali was put to death recently for Iraq's set of morals under Saddam Hussein. And that towards their own citizens. On that basis I do believe our morals stand firm in comparison.

Also, don't presume to make a link between the Daily Mail and my opinions, otherwise I might make a link between the BBC and yours.

 

[Lord Football]

That is a contemptible remark, even by your standards. I'll return later to mock your other ramblings, but for now, I have to work. Yes, work. Look it up if you have to.

It appears you managed 30 minutes of "work". Well done. Me, I am on leave today having found myself 85 hours in credit. Ah well.

 

[Lord Football]

The US is unpopular with people like you because they had the temerity to stand up against, and defeat, your pet project of Communism. It also has to contend with a common motive for hatred – jealousy. When you’re the only alpha dog on the block, people will hate you, especially when they are snivelling stray cats without the means or the nerve for a scrap.



Kyoto was a joke. And it’s becoming clearer that the whole global warming scare is the biggest scam since the Southend United Loan Club rip-off. If you’re really upset about pollution, take it up with the Chinese.



The US Military aren’t slaughtering civilians in Iraq and Afghanistan by the thousand. That’s being done by Islamist pigs like the Taliban, who need to be eradicated. The US don’t plant IEDs in market squares or strap bombs to their children. Whatever your opinions on the reasons for the Iraq War, Saddam Hussein was replaced by a democratically elected government. Tell me how that’s a bad thing?

Your crack about World War II reeks of double standards. Do you want them to get involved in wars or not? If they had turned up in Europe in 1939, US haters like your good self would have told them to mind their own business.



In each case, the US pursued foreign policies they considered to be in their own best interests. Remind me of a country of any consequence that doesn’t operate in that way. And don’t get so angry with the Americans for the suffering in Cuba and Iran – look to the dictatorial leaders of those nations first. Cubans can’t wait to escape Fidel’s socialist paradise and take their chances on an inner tube ride to Key West.



I suggest you read something about the Venona Project. Of course I’ve read ‘The Crucible’. Have you read anything that doesn’t conform to your worldview?



Is this the same Soviet system that murdered millions of its own people, and was then routed by the US capitalists? Yeah, I’ll discuss it with you.

Did I say the US was unpopular with me? No, you put words in my mouth to suit my argument. America has done some good things for the planet, but not nearly as much as it could have, or should have, if they had the inclination and not taken the route of self interest.

Kyoto was a joke, mainly because the US scuppered it. You want a debate on Global Warming, make a thread. I am sure it will be interesting.

Yes, you are correct. The US aren't slaughtering thousands of civilians. Thats why they dont bomb villages, hospitals, office blocks and the like. Of course if the US wasn't there, there wouldn't be any insurgants. But we've had this circular argument before and people like you fail to grasp that everyime an insurgant is killed, more sign up. And of course one person's insurgent is anothers freedom fighters. I am sure if the "ragheads" (as you so elliquontly describe them) invaded the UK, you'd consider yourself a freedom fighter rather than an insurgant.

You obviously have no answer to my World War II analogy. Your use of personal insult highlights that.

"In their own best interests". Regardless of the effect on everyone else. Actually you aren't as smart as you think you are. You could have quoted the Marshall Plan but didn't. The Americans care so much about the Cubans, don't they? Thats why the employ the Coastguard to round them up and send them back. Ever been to Cuba. Its on my list of things to do before I die, but from what I've heard from those that have been is that is nothing like the US like to portray it.

Reading stuff. Hmmmm interesting coming from you. Your source of information is entirely skewed towards the conservative right and in some cases more extreme. People in glasshouses and all that.

Make a thread on the Soviet Union. I may surprise you. But I do so having been to the former Soviet Union as recently as last week, have seen the after effects with my own eyes and spoken to people who lived under the system.

 

[osymandus]

Chemical Ali was put to death recently for Iraq's set of morals under Saddam Hussein. And that towards their own citizens. On that basis I do believe our morals stand firm in comparison.

Also, don't presume to make a link between the Daily Mail and my opinions, otherwise I might make a link between the BBC and yours.

In comparison to what , it was a dictator ship , which was then taken over and he was executed as a mass murder under their law ? How does that compare to teh argument or the idea that America as seen by some is the sole judge of all morality ?

Given the two i would take that as a compliment .

 

[Lord Football]

Chemical Ali bombed innocent Kurds, was tried, convicted and sentenced.

Tony Blair and George W Bush have bombed innocent Iraqis and Afghans, and are lauded as saviours of our time (by some).

The point being made, is that War Criminals only ever come from the losing side.

 

[Dick Bate's Protege]

In comparison to what , it was a dictator ship , which was then taken over and he was executed as a mass murder under their law ? How does that compare to teh argument or the idea that America as seen by some is the sole judge of all morality ?

Given the two i would take that as a compliment .

Struggling to see your point. If America and others had not taken a moral judgement, Saddam Hussein would still be sitting pretty in Baghdad. No doubt innocents have died in the process, but would that total be more had he been left to rule?

 

[Dick Bate's Protege]

Chemical Ali bombed innocent Kurds, was tried, convicted and sentenced.

Tony Blair and George W Bush have bombed innocent Iraqis and Afghans, and are lauded as saviours of our time (by some).

The point being made, is that War Criminals only ever come from the losing side.

More incentive to win then.

 

[Dick Bate's Protege]

Did I say the US was unpopular with me? No, you put words in my mouth to suit my argument. America has done some good things for the planet, but not nearly as much as it could have, or should have, if they had the inclination and not taken the route of self interest.

Kyoto was a joke, mainly because the US scuppered it. You want a debate on Global Warming, make a thread. I am sure it will be interesting.

Yes, you are correct. The US aren't slaughtering thousands of civilians. Thats why they dont bomb villages, hospitals, office blocks and the like. Of course if the US wasn't there, there wouldn't be any insurgants. But we've had this circular argument before and people like you fail to grasp that everyime an insurgant is killed, more sign up. And of course one person's insurgent is anothers freedom fighters. I am sure if the "ragheads" (as you so elliquontly describe them) invaded the UK, you'd consider yourself a freedom fighter rather than an insurgant.

You obviously have no answer to my World War II analogy. Your use of personal insult highlights that.

"In their own best interests". Regardless of the effect on everyone else. Actually you aren't as smart as you think you are. You could have quoted the Marshall Plan but didn't. The Americans care so much about the Cubans, don't they? Thats why the employ the Coastguard to round them up and send them back. Ever been to Cuba. Its on my list of things to do before I die, but from what I've heard from those that have been is that is nothing like the US like to portray it.

Reading stuff. Hmmmm interesting coming from you. Your source of information is entirely skewed towards the conservative right and in some cases more extreme. People in glasshouses and all that.

Make a thread on the Soviet Union. I may surprise you. But I do so having been to the former Soviet Union as recently as last week, have seen the after effects with my own eyes and spoken to people who lived under the system.

I'd be interested to see your views. My father-in-laws brother was a free lance journalist who travelled to the Soviet Union a staunch Communist in the mid-70s and what he found transformed him politically. He's now embarrassed at the very mention of his previous beliefs.

 

[Lord Football]

[/B]

I'd be interested to see your views. My father-in-laws brother was a free lance journalist who travelled to the Soviet Union a staunch Communist in the mid-70s and what he found transformed him politically. He's now embarrassed at the very mention of his previous beliefs.

I think you will be, but I will wait for Rusty to start a thread.

 

[osymandus]

Struggling to see your point. If America and others had not taken a moral judgement, Saddam Hussein would still be sitting pretty in Baghdad. No doubt innocents have died in the process, but would that total be more had he been left to rule?

The point is America is held as , to paraphrase Rusty as the worlds moralistic centre. Iraq could quite easierly have been delt with without a war . Or should say a second one . Saddam only got to power by backing of America and european countries in the first place. And has already been said America has (and UK and Germany and France and Russia etc ) foreign policy ideals that have been imperialist or empire building with little regard for the inhabitants of countries that come under their rule.

Also accourding to Red cross figures the death toll isnt that far off.

Propably the original example for this could be what ancient Rome did to what is now Romania.

 

[the_forgotten_man]

It is truly remarkable that people hold so much against the US. They are the global hegemon. They act like any other state, in terms of acting in their own best interests. Better than most, in fact. What exactly is it that you want the US to be doing? On the one hand you say they don't do nearly enough good around the world. On the other you say it is unacceptable for them to perceive themselves as the global police force.

The fact is, we are extremely fortunate that the most powerful country in the world holds beliefs and morals that are largely in agreement with us (and I don't care what bollocks osy will raise about cultures being different rather than worse, our belief in freedom, democracy is BETTER than those countries in which people are silenced, oppressed, and murdered).

Look at the two biggest threats to global security of the last hundred years: fascism and communism. Who was it that defeated both? I will always be proud of the part Britain played in defeating the Nazis, but equally, I will never ever be as disparaging about the US as you seem to be, because the fact is without them, we may well not have beaten fascism. Yes they only came in in 1941, but what we know about the Nazis now was not quite as obvious back then. Remember Britain stood by waving a piece of paper as the Germans rolled into Czechoslovakia, and the wondrous USSR signed a treaty with Hitler effectively slicing Poland in half.

The USA is not a perfect country. Nowhere is. But I would rather have them as my ally than any other country on earth.

 

[Swiss Tony]

It is truly remarkable that people hold so much against the US. They are the global hegemon. They act like any other state, in terms of acting in their own best interests. Better than most, in fact. What exactly is it that you want the US to be doing? On the one hand you say they don't do nearly enough good around the world. On the other you say it is unacceptable for them to perceive themselves as the global police force.

The fact is, we are extremely fortunate that the most powerful country in the world holds beliefs and morals that are largely in agreement with us (and I don't care what bollocks osy will raise about cultures being different rather than worse, our belief in freedom, democracy is BETTER than those countries in which people are silenced, oppressed, and murdered).

Look at the two biggest threats to global security of the last hundred years: fascism and communism. Who was it that defeated both? I will always be proud of the part Britain played in defeating the Nazis, but equally, I will never ever be as disparaging about the US as you seem to be, because the fact is without them, we may well not have beaten fascism. Yes they only came in in 1941, but what we know about the Nazis now was not quite as obvious back then. Remember Britain stood by waving a piece of paper as the Germans rolled into Czechoslovakia, and the wondrous USSR signed a treaty with Hitler effectively slicing Poland in half.

The USA is not a perfect country. Nowhere is. But I would rather have them as my ally than any other country on earth.

Your a man not to be forgotten,great post.

 

[Dick Bate's Protege]

The point is America is held as , to paraphrase Rusty as the worlds moralistic centre. Iraq could quite easierly have been delt with without a war . Or should say a second one . Saddam only got to power by backing of America and european countries in the first place. And has already been said America has (and UK and Germany and France and Russia etc ) foreign policy ideals that have been imperialist or empire building with little regard for the inhabitants of countries that come under their rule.

Also accourding to Red cross figures the death toll isnt that far off.

Propably the original example for this could be what ancient Rome did to what is now Romania.

Recent events in Iran suggest otherwise.

 

[osymandus]

Recent events in Iran suggest otherwise.

No they don;t becuase if the money on a war was used to destabilise the finances of teh middle east Iran wouldn't be able to afford to do any of this.

However as the oil is run by Saudia Arabia and at the time Iraq, that wasnt very likley . How do you destroy an army you remove its abaility to make war , which is done financially .