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fbm

Blue tinted optimist⭐
Joined
Oct 28, 2003
Messages
9,105
Location
Cloud cuckoo land
In my 37 years of following SUFC, there have been two distinct periods where the club has gone in for "quality" players on good money.  On each occasion the management were applauded for showing great ambition... and each occasion ended in absolute disaster and nearly killed the club we love.

Occasion 1 - 1983-4.  Peter Morris was manager and the Blues were in the old Div 3 (league one now).  The season started a bit iffy but then we brought in Billy Kellock from Div 1 (Prem) Wolves.  The team blew hot and cold but when they clicked they destroyed sides.  The early part of that season saw a 6-1 victory at Scunthorpe followed by 2 successive 3-0 defeats, one at home to Exeter and the other away at Burnley.  Then a 3-0 victory over Orient, a 2-0 reverse at Bolton but then the peak of that season; a 6-0 thumping of Brentford at the Hall to put Blues up to 17th but as the team were beginning to gel the feeling was that we had loads of class and would soon climb up the table.  How wrong we were.  Kellock and his overpaid cronies lapsed into the comfort zone, picking up their wages without putting in the effort... Morris was replaced by the late great Bobby Moore as manager who failed to halt the slide, and look at some of the results we had that season - Sheff Utd 0-5, Gillingham 1-5, Plymouth 0-4, Millwall 0-4... we finished in 22nd and got relegated (despite ex England international Trevor Whymark being in the team).  The following 2 seasons were the darkest ever in the clubs history.

Occasion 2 - The Ronnie Whelan era.  Please, please please everyone ask themselves why Mike Marsh (Galatasary), Lars Unger (Fortuna Dusseldorf), £1m rated Andy Rammell, US International Mike Lapper, and ex-Celtic players Paul Byrne and Mark McNally want to ply their trade at Roots Hall?  Two answers - a) money, and b) an easy life, both which they had in abundance during that spell that saw Blues lose their Div 1 status, and go straight through div 2 to the bottom league, which we have only just clambered out of.

So, frankly, I have no desire to go down that route again, and am only interested in playeres who want to play for this club.  We will be a far more stable and successful outfit with a team of journeymen and youngsters than we will with a team of prima donnas and famous has beens.

Just remember, before they came to Southend, Collymore, Powell, Butler, Austin, Edinburgh and Prior were all up and coming or players with points to prove having been discarded onto the scrapheap from elsewhere.  Chris Powell was with Aldershot, for Gods sake!  And they all blossomed under us, went on to play at Prem and in some cases International level.

So for me you can keep Luke Beckett, Neil Harris, Shaun Goater et al... bring on players we've never heard of who want to play for us, like Barrett, Eastwood and Gower.

Tilly and Brush haven't got one wrong yet.  I trust their judgement.
 

Southendsleeper

Manager
Joined
May 22, 2004
Messages
1,787
I pretty much agree with all of that, but im still worried that we have signed NOT A SINGLE new player. Not one.

We're shedding players like its going out of fashion and not replacing them. We've been lucky in regards to injury last season, but we havent got enough players, never mind ones of a higher quality.
 
Joined
Mar 20, 2005
Messages
775
[b said:
Quote[/b] (fbm @ July 13 2005,10:13)]In my 37 years of following SUFC, there have been two distinct periods where the club has gone in for "quality" players on good money.  On each occasion the management were applauded for showing great ambition... and each occasion ended in absolute disaster and nearly killed the club we love.

Occasion 1 - 1983-4.  Peter Morris was manager and the Blues were in the old Div 3 (league one now).  The season started a bit iffy but then we brought in Billy Kellock from Div 1 (Prem) Wolves.  The team blew hot and cold but when they clicked they destroyed sides.  The early part of that season saw a 6-1 victory at Scunthorpe followed by 2 successive 3-0 defeats, one at home to Exeter and the other away at Burnley.  Then a 3-0 victory over Orient, a 2-0 reverse at Bolton but then the peak of that season; a 6-0 thumping of Brentford at the Hall to put Blues up to 17th but as the team were beginning to gel the feeling was that we had loads of class and would soon climb up the table.  How wrong we were.  Kellock and his overpaid cronies lapsed into the comfort zone, picking up their wages without putting in the effort... Morris was replaced by the late great Bobby Moore as manager who failed to halt the slide, and look at some of the results we had that season - Sheff Utd 0-5, Gillingham 1-5, Plymouth 0-4, Millwall 0-4... we finished in 22nd and got relegated (despite ex England international Trevor Whymark being in the team).  The following 2 seasons were the darkest ever in the clubs history.

Occasion 2 - The Ronnie Whelan era.  Please, please please everyone ask themselves why Mike Marsh (Galatasary), Lars Unger (Fortuna Dusseldorf), £1m rated Andy Rammell, US International Mike Lapper, and ex-Celtic players Paul Byrne and Mark McNally want to ply their trade at Roots Hall?  Two answers - a) money, and b) an easy life, both which they had in abundance during that spell that saw Blues lose their Div 1 status, and go straight through div 2 to the bottom league, which we have only just clambered out of.

So, frankly, I have no desire to go down that route again, and am only interested in playeres who want to play for this club.  We will be a far more stable and successful outfit with a team of journeymen and youngsters than we will with a team of prima donnas and famous has beens.

Just remember, before they came to Southend, Collymore, Powell, Butler, Austin, Edinburgh and Prior were all up and coming or players with points to prove having been discarded onto the scrapheap from elsewhere.  Chris Powell was with Aldershot, for Gods sake!  And they all blossomed under us, went on to play at Prem and in some cases International level.

So for me you can keep Luke Beckett, Neil Harris, Shaun Goater et al... bring on players we've never heard of who want to play for us, like Barrett, Eastwood and Gower.

Tilly and Brush haven't got one wrong yet.  I trust their judgement.
Bullseye at last well said that man
 

Beefy

Life President
Joined
Oct 27, 2003
Messages
18,906
Location
Old Leigh
Unger was signed by Alvin Martin. And I don't think you can question the commitment shown on the pich by the likes of Marsh, Rammell & Lapper. Marsh is the best player I've ever seen at Roots Hall better than Collymore, better than Powell, better than Whelan.

I take your point though. I genuinely believe that our success last season was down in part to us having so many people on the playing and coaching sides of things for whom Southend United meant something extra to them. And thats what you want, and thats something that you lose as soon as you start throwing money at mercenaries.

That said, I'd take a mercenary right now. Particularly one as good as Luke Beckett. Had we got him, he might have only been playing for the pay cheque, but ultimately he'd have brought a massive amount of class and ability and, provided he stayed fit, 20-25 goals. I've been calm all summer about the lack of signings but the longer we go on the more I come round to suspecting that this is going to be our third successive one year visit to this level of football.
 

Shrimpbizkit

Coach
Joined
Jul 6, 2005
Messages
517
But this is a step up from League 2 which in quality terms isnt that much better than the Conference. Just look at some of the players teams in this Diviison have signed and the quality of some squads is very good indeed. Yes we dont want to blow huge wages on mercenaries but at the same time if we are going to stay in this division we need some proven players at this level, of which Beckett is one.
 

jumbo shrimp

Guest
Don't be worried - we've still plenty of time to get players signed up.

I'm relaxed about it because the management realise the situation and look to be on the verge of announcing signings.

I don't know if I agree with the original comment in this thread though. You need a balance - I don't think it does any harm to bring in some quality, just not to the extent Whelan did in the mid-90s, we couldn't afford it.

Remember also, that our most expensive signing - Mike Marsh - didn't pull the club down with a bad attitude. He had a career-ending injury.

And finally it needs to be said that a lot depends on the quality of the management. For all you know Tilly could well get the goods from expensive signings in a way Whelan & Martin couldn't.

I understand where you're coming from, though.
 

Olisadavey

Youth Team
Joined
May 9, 2005
Messages
105
Location
Brentwood, Essex
[b said:
Quote[/b] (fbm @ July 13 2005,10:13)]In my 37 years of following SUFC, there have been two distinct periods where the club has gone in for "quality" players on good money.  On each occasion the management were applauded for showing great ambition... and each occasion ended in absolute disaster and nearly killed the club we love.

Occasion 1 - 1983-4.  Peter Morris was manager and the Blues were in the old Div 3 (league one now).  The season started a bit iffy but then we brought in Billy Kellock from Div 1 (Prem) Wolves.  The team blew hot and cold but when they clicked they destroyed sides.  The early part of that season saw a 6-1 victory at Scunthorpe followed by 2 successive 3-0 defeats, one at home to Exeter and the other away at Burnley.  Then a 3-0 victory over Orient, a 2-0 reverse at Bolton but then the peak of that season; a 6-0 thumping of Brentford at the Hall to put Blues up to 17th but as the team were beginning to gel the feeling was that we had loads of class and would soon climb up the table.  How wrong we were.  Kellock and his overpaid cronies lapsed into the comfort zone, picking up their wages without putting in the effort... Morris was replaced by the late great Bobby Moore as manager who failed to halt the slide, and look at some of the results we had that season - Sheff Utd 0-5, Gillingham 1-5, Plymouth 0-4, Millwall 0-4... we finished in 22nd and got relegated (despite ex England international Trevor Whymark being in the team).  The following 2 seasons were the darkest ever in the clubs history.

Occasion 2 - The Ronnie Whelan era.  Please, please please everyone ask themselves why Mike Marsh (Galatasary), Lars Unger (Fortuna Dusseldorf), £1m rated Andy Rammell, US International Mike Lapper, and ex-Celtic players Paul Byrne and Mark McNally want to ply their trade at Roots Hall?  Two answers - a) money, and b) an easy life, both which they had in abundance during that spell that saw Blues lose their Div 1 status, and go straight through div 2 to the bottom league, which we have only just clambered out of.

So, frankly, I have no desire to go down that route again, and am only interested in playeres who want to play for this club.  We will be a far more stable and successful outfit with a team of journeymen and youngsters than we will with a team of prima donnas and famous has beens.

Just remember, before they came to Southend, Collymore, Powell, Butler, Austin, Edinburgh and Prior were all up and coming or players with points to prove having been discarded onto the scrapheap from elsewhere.  Chris Powell was with Aldershot, for Gods sake!  And they all blossomed under us, went on to play at Prem and in some cases International level.

So for me you can keep Luke Beckett, Neil Harris, Shaun Goater et al... bring on players we've never heard of who want to play for us, like Barrett, Eastwood and Gower.

Tilly and Brush haven't got one wrong yet.  I trust their judgement.
very true, i would like people who want to play for the club. but how many top quality players do? i wouldnt have thought too many. and we need to quality players if we are to avoid falling back down to the basement. and we definately need more to the squad than we have now. if only for depth. and someone like luke beckett is a quality player. the problem with the ronnie whelan era was half the team didnt want to be there. just one person doesnt really matter too much. and i doubt prior, barrett or tilly, who all love southend dearly, would let the new bloke (if there is one) to slack off
 

palexander

Life President
Joined
Oct 27, 2003
Messages
8,128
Location
Brightlingsea
Great post, but like the others - I would question you lambasting some of those players in the Whelan era - especially Marsh, who was a class act and Lapper, who was superb and certainly didnt lack any attitude problems.

Plus, didnt we get Lapper for about £150,000 from the US Soccer Federation? A steal in my eyes.

Finally, I doubt Andy Rammell has ever been rated near £1m !!
 

fbm

Blue tinted optimist⭐
Joined
Oct 28, 2003
Messages
9,105
Location
Cloud cuckoo land
[b said:
Quote[/b] (Olisadavey @ July 13 2005,10:35)]just one person doesnt really matter too much. and i doubt prior, barrett or tilly, who all love southend dearly, would let the new bloke (if there is one) to slack off
It only takes one bad apple...

Also, to the others - I take the point about Lars Unger but the principle is the same.

And consider this -

for the first time ever we have a deadline day at the end of August. This means that players cannot play on a match-by-match basis - they have to be signed. There is still plenty of time. The worst thing Tilson can do is panic buy.
 

Mick

Life President
Joined
Oct 28, 2003
Messages
10,393
[b said:
Quote[/b] (fbm @ July 13 2005,10:13)]In my 37 years of following SUFC, there have been two distinct periods where the club has gone in for "quality" players on good money.  On each occasion the management were applauded for showing great ambition... and each occasion ended in absolute disaster and nearly killed the club we love.

Occasion 1 - 1983-4.  Peter Morris was manager and the Blues were in the old Div 3 (league one now).  The season started a bit iffy but then we brought in Billy Kellock from Div 1 (Prem) Wolves.  The team blew hot and cold but when they clicked they destroyed sides.  
Strange, my recollection of 1983-84 was Dave Smith leaving suddenly in the summer and Peter Morris starting the season with about 11 players including three goalkeepers!!

I don't recall it it for the type of abject profligacy that Whelan presided over. Although I do agree that Kellock was one of the laziest players to don a Southend shirt and I also recall a pointless sending off (in the days when you had to work quite hard at being dismissed, unlike now) at a time when he was badly needed on the field.

Another particular memory was the 6-4 defeat at Wimbledon, on the same day that Essex won the county championship.
 

fbm

Blue tinted optimist⭐
Joined
Oct 28, 2003
Messages
9,105
Location
Cloud cuckoo land
[b said:
Quote[/b] (pboreham @ July 13 2005,10:42)]Great post, but like the others - I would question you lambasting some of those players in the Whelan era - especially Marsh, who was a class act and Lapper, who was superb and certainly didnt lack any attitude problems.

Plus, didnt we get Lapper for about £150,000 from the US Soccer Federation? A steal in my eyes.

Finally, I doubt Andy Rammell has ever been rated near £1m !!
Lapper did ok for us - I certainly wouldn't put him in the same bracket as Kellock, but one still begs the question "Why would he come here?"

As for Marsh, I'm afraid he flattered to deceive in my eyes. He oozed class, certainly, and was able to spray the ball across the pitch in a stylish way... but this action mainly took place in his own half, in front of the back four. If he could have played just behind the strikers and laid incisive balls to them he would have been dynamite. But he didn't.

Anyone can look good when they are under no pressure. He played in areas where the opposition allowed him to because they knew he couldn't hurt them.
 

Hong Kong Blue

Guest
Excellent post FBM.

Give me players with a point to prove (Barrett, Eastwood, Bentley) than players who want to sign for the money. If you sign mercenaries they'll up sticks at the first bigger pay packet.


ps Who the hell rated Andy Rammell at £1m? I thought at £250,000 he was over-priced, this after all was a striker who would be puffing like a chimney as soon as he broke into a trot.
 
Joined
Feb 17, 2004
Messages
19,752
Location
G69
[b said:
Quote[/b] (Hong Kong Blue @ July 13 2005,10:56)]Who the hell rated Andy Rammell at £1m? I thought at £250,000 he was over-priced, this after all was a striker who would be puffing like a chimney as soon as he broke into a trot.
You ACTUALLY saw Rammell break into a trot?
Blimey, there must be as much chance of that happenning as winning the lottery or Swansea City not cheating!
biggrin.gif
tounge.gif
laugh.gif
 

N'Zamba Legend

Youth Team
Joined
Jun 10, 2005
Messages
222
Mike Marsh was pure class. He was definately the best all-round player I have seen at RH in the twenty years I've been going. He played a similar role to Maher in many ways but his passing was of stellar quality and he also scored a few goals (last minute winner against Ipswich was the best goal I've seen at the Hall). In my eyes, he was worth all the money we paid at the time, and I only wish we could have seen more of him. I never felt he was a bottler either- who could forget the twenty man brawl at home versus Foggia.

But Rammell was $%&*.
 
Joined
Sep 27, 2004
Messages
10,113
Location
Wixams
I agree 100%, although i am getting concerned that we have signed nobody.

However why are we not going after players that as you say "want to play for our club, like Barrett, Eastwood and Gower"? Why are we going after these players like Beckett?

Its almost as if Tilly and Brush are trying to have their cake and eat it, problem.....
 

fbm

Blue tinted optimist⭐
Joined
Oct 28, 2003
Messages
9,105
Location
Cloud cuckoo land
[b said:
Quote[/b] (Mick @ July 13 2005,10:46)]Strange, my recollection of 1983-84 was Dave Smith leaving suddenly in the summer and Peter Morris starting the season with about 11 players including three goalkeepers!!

I don't recall it it for the type of abject profligacy that Whelan presided over. Although I do agree that Kellock was one of the laziest players to don a Southend shirt and I also recall a pointless sending off (in the days when you had to work quite hard at being dismissed, unlike now) at a time when he was badly needed on the field.

Another particular memory was the 6-4 defeat at Wimbledon, on the same day that Essex won the county championship.
That is true, but I also seem to remember Morris being given the green light to sign the players that he did as opposed to lower league ones. Any "new" team takes time, but IMHO Kellock, Whymark, Skivington, Ferguson and Fucillo were the class acts that should have got us up, not sent us down.
 

Hong Kong Blue

Guest
[b said:
Quote[/b] (N'Zamba Legend @ July 13 2005,11:15)]Mike Marsh was pure class. He was definately the best all-round player I have seen at RH in the twenty years I've been going. He played a similar role to Maher in many ways but his passing was of stellar quality and he also scored a few goals (last minute winner against Ipswich was the best goal I've seen at the Hall). In my eyes, he was worth all the money we paid at the time, and I only wish we could have seen more of him. I never felt he was a bottler either- who could forget the twenty man brawl at home versus Foggia.

But Rammell was $%&*.
The Anglo-Italian cup should definitely be revived. I can't recall any other tournament which provoked so many brawls.

My favourite brawl was a 20 man brawl, I believe against Brescia, in which the referee decided that Chris Powell was the main culprit, despite the fact that Chrissy Powell was (along with their goalkeeper) the only player not trading blows as he was acting as peacemaker.

However I suspect the ref might have confused the world's greatest living left back with Ooh Andy Ansah, who was getting well involved.

ps Mike Marsh oozed class, even when he was strolling through games.

pps If anyone has video footage of Cosenza going after Ricky Otto with a hammer, I'd love to see it.
 
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