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palexander

Life President
Joined
Oct 27, 2003
Messages
7,508
Location
C*lchester
Christ, shrimperzone suicide coming up....

I've begun to take stock of the situation we find ourselves in. Probably because things looked so bleak and I was so angry and frustrated (as are we all no doubt) that i almost gave up completely on the club and in doing so, probably removed the emotion I felt for the club. I had become almost a non fan looking in at any other club.

Anyway during this period a small part of me has begun to come round to 'the dream' again - maybe it was the videos over the weekend (that I criticised but on repeat viewings realised I was criticising because I didn't want to like or believe Martin).

Anyways... In the cold light of day and removing the emotion of the love of the club and (in my case) 25+ years of support, I have begun to wonder if Ron is actually doing much wrong? (dons tin hat...)

1) first and foremost, he is trying to build us a nice new ground. Ambitious yes, too big? Maybe. But I don't think many of us were against it at the start and if it does come off, then how fantastic. Yes, martin stands to make a lot of money at the end, but we all agreed this week that anyone coming in would be in it to make money and not many see that as a bad thing.

2) non payment of wages and bills. On the surface this is terrible of course it is. It probably cost us our league status last season and caused no end of unrest and hurt. But again, take the emotion out of 'he is killing our club' and think about it. Did he have any other choice? He cannot produce money from out of his backside, so there is only so much to go round. Like running the country, there is only a finite amount of resources, it's just where you choose to spend it.

I'm not condoning this (or trying not to anyway!) just seeing it from another view point. Maybe he had no choice but to not pay the bills and players. In face, perhaps he is keeping us alive by doing that very thing. Perhaps he has been very astute and strung enough debtors along for long enough to keep the project alive? Again, if the money isn't there, then the bills cannot be met. Is there any damning evidence that money has gone elsewhere? Serious question as i may have overlooked this?! :D

3) sacking of tilson and brush. It's been hard for me on hearing the news Sunday. I was one of tilsons harshest critics, despite really liking him as a player and acknowledging his early achievements (which I've stated many times were more a combination in my eyes of eastwood, confidence and tilsons ability to keep a happy group), I've called for change many times over the last 3-4 years, so to shed any tears now was to be at best hypocritical. So I finally have what I've wanted - almost exactly what i called for. A more experienced head that could hopefully get more out of a team tactically and with better contacts. In fact as an appointment, its about as good as it can get. Yes, tilson is a legend, but in the cold light of day he was appearing to be a pain to work with from what I saw and heard through the media.

Yes, he was massively handicapped, but it was no surprise as time went on what the situation was at the club and if it was that bad, perhaps steve could have walked. I suppose you admire his loyalty in one way, but if he was offered the Norwich or mk dons job, then i think he would have left us anyway. It would appear Ron has tried to make the best move by taking the downbeat tilson out of the firing line and getting in that someone with a bit more nous and hoping he can deal with both a lack of finance if that happens again, or get more out of the players available by employing tactical changes more effectively.

Not a bad footballing decision in my eyes, but the emotion of it has nulled the effect with most supporters.

4) lies and spin. My biggest bug bear with ron has been the perceived lies and spin and treating us like idiots. Back to the e word, but I always jump in emotionally and rant and rave about it. But whilst reading some of the responses Fbm has made, he makes a hell of a lot of sense on this subject. About how certain events are unavoidable and perhaps some truths have to be bent a bit to protect 3rd parties, or the club. I'd imagine building a new stadium and everything that comes with it is a hugely massively complex series of events, each requiring great attention, negotiation and legal administration. As fans, we want answers NOW and its frustrating having to wait things out - and I'm sure some events don't go the way they are intended and more spin is needed.

Could Ron be more honest? Yes, I'm sure he could or at least we'd like him too. Do we know all the facts and inner workings? No, so how can we possibly pass comment?

5) "Ron Martin is killing our club". If you are still with me (and ill admit I'm bored now :) ) then the final point is, IS Ron martin killing our club, or is he a man with an end goal that in an ideal world will make everyone extremely happy?

As i said above, business dealings must be amazingly complex and i doubt there are many on sz that even know what a lot of what is going on at the highest levels of these deals.

Bollocks, typing this on an ipad and just lost a load of following text, so I'll wind it up...

Basically, I think ron is stuck with us, we are stuck with Ron. Killing the club makes no sense for either party and i genuinely think he is trying to do what he set out to do.

The problem is he has cried wolf so many times that no matter what he says, it gets dismissed, he is on a hiding to nothing now.

All i am saying is in future, i am going to try and be more objective rather than emotional. As i said in the thread about the protests, if a load of money comes in this week, we come out of embargo, sign a load of player and pay off the hmrc, then what is the protest going to be for?

Is ron Martin killing this club, or has he more or less stuck to what he promised (like paying off the hmrc, not going into admin etc), but in doing so, upset the apple cart a few times as is probably a necessity in high level business?
 
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leeblue

Members⭐
Joined
Aug 22, 2006
Messages
8,401
Location
On the seafront c c csiders
brave post indeed, I think the truth is somewhere inbetween the anti-ron hardcore and the rose tinted crew, I am inclined to want martin out big time, but the truth is SUFC is still going and maybe just maybe some ****ing players are about to come in, time will tell and Im sure we will all see how it pans out
 

palexander

Life President
Joined
Oct 27, 2003
Messages
7,508
Location
C*lchester
Thanks lee. Yea, forgot to say Im not exactly 'pro ron' by any means, but I am pro southend and all the time we are still here, we are a step closer to fossets and whatever that may bring.

It would be nice to think in a year or two people may be posting on here "I was wrong about Ron".
 
Joined
Mar 6, 2004
Messages
3,582
Location
Suffolk 'em all
Some points well put, but yes, he is that bad.

He does not want SUFC to fail, until he gets what he wants.

And I do not see Tilly through rose tinted specs - but no one could have coped with the 'support' Ron gave him last season. Tilly's main failing was that he should have old Ron to stuff it some time ago, but even the promise of a pay cheque is better than the dole when you have bills to try and pay.

See comments made on the AFC thread now running. In all likelihood Ron will run out of luck and we will go down with him unless he goes first. And if he does not and it all 'works' then we will be a Club with no friends and just another crisis around the corner.

Sorry, I prefer cup half full, but I've seen enough of this man now.
 

DTS

The Business
Joined
Oct 25, 2003
Messages
16,173
Location
In a world of my own.
Personally if he delivered or even got close to what he says we will deliver then I would like him.

However its the constant lies and spin that I cant accept. Its the everyone else is to blame I cant accept and its the crap comments like "the players knew they were always going to get there wages" that I cant accept.

The sacking of Tilson as a decison was a brave one - Didnt really agree at the time but maybe its for the best in the long run. However I think its the way its been handled once again. Tilson is the ultimate Southend legend - Prehaps he had run out of steam but there are ways to treat a one club man and that is not one of them.
 

palexander

Life President
Joined
Oct 27, 2003
Messages
7,508
Location
C*lchester
Some points well put, but yes, he is that bad.

He does not want SUFC to fail, until he gets what he wants.

And I do not see Tilly through rose tinted specs - but no one could have coped with the 'support' Ron gave him last season. Tilly's main failing was that he should have old Ron to stuff it some time ago, but even the promise of a pay cheque is better than the dole when you have bills to try and pay.

See comments made on the AFC thread now running. In all likelihood Ron will run out of luck and we will go down with him unless he goes first. And if he does not and it all 'works' then we will be a Club with no friends and just another crisis around the corner.

Sorry, I prefer cup half full, but I've seen enough of this man now.

Take your point, but its the kind of thing I'm talking about. All gusto, but not many points about what he has actually done wrong?

I really mean no offence, we are all fans and want the same thing. Is there anything in particularly that you feel he has really done to harm the club that could have been avoided in your opinion?...
 

DTS

The Business
Joined
Oct 25, 2003
Messages
16,173
Location
In a world of my own.
Take your point, but its the kind of thing I'm talking about. All gusto, but not many points about what he has actually done wrong?

I really mean no offence, we are all fans and want the same thing. Is there anything in particularly that you feel he has really done to harm the club that could have been avoided in your opinion?...

1) Constantly lied about the new stadium / war chest etc
2) Treated numerous staff appallingly
3) Failed to pay the players on time
4) Failed to invest into the side despite claims he would
5) taken the club to within a inch of a winding up order.

If I was more awake sure I could nail another ten or so.
 

palexander

Life President
Joined
Oct 27, 2003
Messages
7,508
Location
C*lchester
Personally if he delivered or even got close to what he says we will deliver then I would like him.

However its the constant lies and spin that I cant accept. Its the everyone else is to blame I cant accept and its the crap comments like "the players knew they were always going to get there wages" that I cant accept.

The sacking of Tilson as a decison was a brave one - Didnt really agree at the time but maybe its for the best in the long run. However I think its the way its been handled once again. Tilson is the ultimate Southend legend - Prehaps he had run out of steam but there are ways to treat a one club man and that is not one of them.

I fully agree that tilson dismissal could have been handled better. Like my mate said, at least give him the dignity of being able to resign. But I'm not sure what else could have been done, you either sack someone or your don't.

If sturrock was spoken to last week, then that's business and in the cold light of day it could be seen as a decent move by Ron. We could be sitting here today with no manager, saying " well done Ron, sack tilson and not have anyone lined up, brilliant" when our first day of training is due to start.

I dunno, like i say, ron cannot win sometimes and this is a prime example with some.
 

DTS

The Business
Joined
Oct 25, 2003
Messages
16,173
Location
In a world of my own.
I fully agree that tilson dismissal could have been handled better. Like my mate said, at least give him the dignity of being able to resign. But I'm not sure what else could have been done, you either sack someone or your don't.

If sturrock was spoken to last week, then that's business and in the cold light of day it could be seen as a decent move by Ron. We could be sitting here today with no manager, saying " well done Ron, sack tilson and not have anyone lined up, brilliant" when our first day of training is due to start.

I dunno, like i say, ron cannot win sometimes and this is a prime example with some.

If Ron Martin had said after the Stockport game "Steve Tilson has done a great job, I will always respect him but it seems to me the fire has gone from his belly a bit and I think a change of ideas is needed" - Then whilst it would have hurt then I think most rational fans could have seen some truth in that.

I think for what its worth Sturrock is a good replacement - possibly on paper a better replacement so im not knocking him for that as I feared a Ricky Duncan type move (No offence to Ricky but someone on the cheap).

You cannot for my mind sack someone especially someone as creidble and loved by the fans as Tilly five weeks before the season starts having given him nothing to work with for the best part of a season.
 

Beefy

Life President
Joined
Oct 27, 2003
Messages
18,901
Location
Old Leigh
I don't believe that Ron Martin is trying to kill this Club. I don't believe that he's part of some conspiracy to bleed this business of the millions of pounds per year of profit that some people seem to think that we would otherwise be making. I think he's a property developer out to make himself some money, but he's run out of cash and that's caused the Club's crippling underlying operating and cashflow problems to well and truly come to the surface.

If he can get the Club to Fossetts Farm despite it making massive losses and despite him having no capability to cover those losses then it will be a remarkable piece of crisis management.

A week ago it looked like he had failed. Today's moves seem to indicate that he's somehow managed to keep the balls in the air a little longer.

With the information we've got in front of us now, I think that Ron Martin is still the best hope we have. The Consortium have the cash to cover our operating losses for now but we've yet to hear from them their proposals for how they will achieve the move to the new ground. My personal preference would be for a fan-ownership of the football club along the lines that I suggested last week, leaving the property developers to fight amongst themselves over who owns Roots Hall Limited and the land at Fossetts Farm, but I think there's too much apathy for that to ever happen here.
 
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palexander

Life President
Joined
Oct 27, 2003
Messages
7,508
Location
C*lchester
1) Constantly lied about the new stadium / war chest etc
2) Treated numerous staff appallingly
3) Failed to pay the players on time
4) Failed to invest into the side despite claims he would

If I was more awake sure I could nail another ten or so.

1) think he has learned his lesson on that in the video interviews by saying he now wouldn't name a start date for the stadium. Could be because there isn't going to be one of course, or just that he is trying to manage our expectations better. War chest was announced before the recession and everything going tits up? Never mentioned after.

2) again, not picking a fight, but do we know this for a fact? Ive been made redundant a few times, its not nice and the employer always gets seen in a bad light, but some times it's unavoidable.

3) as i mentioned in my op, the money has been spent elsewhere and the pot is dry. Do i like that? No. Could it be avoided? I honestly am not in a position to know. If we had paid everybody's wages, would we have gone under? Who knows, maybe? The fact remains we have a club today, some players and a hope of more to come with the situation resolved. I hope those that have stayed and will stay get the rewards for their loyalty.

4) fair point, but we did get some players in last year when the well was probably drier than a bloody dry thing. Baldwin in particular was a good signing and others didn't work out, but didn't we have our highest number of used players last year? Not ideal or defending it, but in black and white, he DID invest money into the side last year, but it perhaps wasn't utilised very well. Very difficult to finger blame, nut might be one of those things we have had to go through.
 

chrisblore

President
Joined
Dec 28, 2004
Messages
4,912
Location
Boreham
1) Constantly lied about the new stadium / war chest etc
2) Treated numerous staff appallingly
3) Failed to pay the players on time
4) Failed to invest into the side despite claims he would
5) taken the club to within a inch of a winding up order.

If I was more awake sure I could nail another ten or so.

6) Let that dopey mug Geoff King slag off hard-working players.
7) Not being able to resist cheap shots at players and the manager when they leave the club.
 
Joined
Mar 6, 2004
Messages
3,582
Location
Suffolk 'em all
1) Constantly lied about the new stadium / war chest etc
2) Treated numerous staff appallingly
3) Failed to pay the players on time
4) Failed to invest into the side despite claims he would
5) taken the club to within a inch of a winding up order.


If I was more awake sure I could nail another ten or so.

What Dave said, even half asleep it takes little thought to come up with reasons. Have a kip now DTS.

And if you think a little further, just committing one of the above offences in a 'normal business' would be likely to lead in you getting an uncerimonious sacking.
 

wiggy

Darryl's Love Child
Joined
Oct 30, 2003
Messages
3,767
I fully agree that tilson dismissal could have been handled better. Like my mate said, at least give him the dignity of being able to resign. But I'm not sure what else could have been done, you either sack someone or your don't.

If sturrock was spoken to last week, then that's business and in the cold light of day it could be seen as a decent move by Ron. We could be sitting here today with no manager, saying " well done Ron, sack tilson and not have anyone lined up, brilliant" when our first day of training is due to start.

I dunno, like i say, ron cannot win sometimes and this is a prime example with some.

You bloody love Ron, it's so obvious with everything you spout!
 
Joined
Mar 6, 2004
Messages
3,582
Location
Suffolk 'em all
You bloody love Ron, it's so obvious with everything you spout!

There is nothing wrong with loving Ron, it is a free world and we live in times when even odd things have to be respected as genuine views if that is what they are.

............but that said I suspect 'loving Ron' is a rare passion at present and is not something I would want to subscribe too, even if you gave me an orange vest, a few pennies for my troubles to stand in suburban garden for hours on end and a promise that one day I could have a brand new spanking patch of grass with corporate facilities to stand in.
 

Beefy

Life President
Joined
Oct 27, 2003
Messages
18,901
Location
Old Leigh
I don't think anyone on here loves Ron Martin. I've been tarred with the Pro-Ron brush more than once and I'm livid with him over his treatment of Steve Tilson, amongst other things.

We're all Pro-Southend United.
 
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