Iraq/Afghanistan

[J]

Ok, i will warn you now, this is gonna be a long post.
It has all originated from a lengthy discussion i had today when i was at lunch with one of my best mates. He's just come back from his 2nd tour of Afghan and has done 1 tour in Iraq. He has been in the army 4 years, so pretty much has had 6 months on and off. He has just volunteered for a future deployment in october - upmost respect.

Inevitabely after discussing the lack of transfer comings, the conversation changed to work, as he had a lot to say.

We started talking about the Paras and the public reaction to the 5 deaths last week (RIP). He was saying how pleased he is with the change in the countries' opinions, not so long ago, he was actually disowned by 2 good mates, mutual mates at that, and has never regained contact, and nor have i. It was down to the fact that one had become a member of the Anti War coalition etc. And it nearly came to blows. He has had 3 homecoming parades, the first 2, they were heckled and boooed from some brave emo goth types in Devon, and one even threw an anti war poster over one of the soldiers. Now, i personally, couldn't think of a bigger insult, how dare they?
Do these people not understand that squaddies, officers etc etc, put their lives on the line daily!!!! So that have the right to bloody protest? Do they not understand the sacrifices these people make?
Now recently, as i'm sure you agree, there has been fantastic support for the lads and ladettes, and to be honest, sometimes on the news, to see them come home - and people 6 or 7 deep cheer throw flowers etc, brings a lump in the back of the throat! So what's changed?
Well this is all my opinion.

I regard the 2 conflicts completely differently, and indeed i hope most of you do, and understand the difference -
first of all -

IRAQ - Invasion on lies, against world politics and the UN, It was Bush's glory quest, after no Bin Laden found. But do you blame the soldiers out there? Do you heckle them? Do you not support them? Hell no, ****ing Hell No! Who would go there to do the Job? You? Probably not..

Afghanistan - the world changed on september 11 2001, suddenly the west became the most prized target for islamic fundementalists. Afghanistan was located as the breeding ground for these people, and so rightly, it was taken to its knees in 2001 and 2002 - yet just like a spot, the head was removed, but the puss remained, and the ***** were never properly killed off.

So when we silly knobs on tv saying bring the troops home, what the hell do they think will happen to world security?

My mate has said, he finds it immensley disrespectful for people to call them home, they (most) believe they are doing a worthile job in the 'stan.

Unfortunately, IRAQ, has just been bush's and blairs little love in. But now we're there, we gotta sort it. It isn't the british way to leave it half done? Surely?

The recent stats showing that soldiers get paid less than traffic wardens? Soldiers returning home injured, unable to carry out any more tasks in the career they've given their life to, given 4 week ultimatums to get out of ther house? what the hell.. what the hell Brown.

Only in this country, was an Iraqi Boy given 20 times as much compensation as a british soldier who went blind and lost a hand. Jeez. No wonder recruitment and retention is low.

Today, cameron announced some decent initiatives which should be backed.
Better healthcare and dentistry. This is what we need, these people and families should be at the top of the bloody list!!!!!!!!

Just remember Brown, when you settle down for dinner with the Mrs, on an Oak table with silverware, troops are squatting in sandy shacks eating rations, and while you have a pillow, some will be awake, fighting for your politics.

 

[HUTTON]

Great post J :clap:

Fully agree with what you have said there

 

[Beefy]

Yeah I agree with all of that too, J. A lot of us were, and are, opposed to the war, but being opposed to the war shouldn't mean being opposed to those who fight the war and who put their lives on the line day after day. I've got nothing but respect for everyone in our armed forces and I don't understand how anyone can think differently.

 

[Medway Blue]

Great post, and as has been said, those who are against the launch of the war/the reasons/whatever, are not in any way against the brave souls who put their lives on the line out there. They do a great job and deserve all the respect in the world.

 

[canveyshrimper]

I would suggest that most right thinking people have the utmost respect for all branches of our armed forces, I think that our soldiers, sailors & airmen are also the most respected in the world. Well that's my opinion at least.

I agree that with Afghanistan the right was definitely on the side of the USA after 11/9. This view was also fully supported by the UN and the fact that UN troops are still in this godforsaken country bears this out. However, and I've said this before politicians never look at history. There have been numerous attempts to subjugate Afghanistan for 100's of years and nobody has succeeded. The much vaunted all powerful Soviet army got the @rses kick by the Afghans, and I see that the current venture is equally unwinnable. Remember the words of our then Defence Secretary who 3 years ago assured us we would be out by now without a shot being fired. All well and good for him sitting in his Whitehall ivory tower.

As you rightly say Iraq was an entirely different kettle of fish. I would say there are a number of reasons for this invasion, regime change, oil and also the hope that George Bush jr could rectify the fact that his father didn't finish the job in 1991. However the whole war was carried out on a tissue of lies, most of which emanated from Blair and his chief cohort Campbell. Again they didn't learn from history in 1991 the Allies pulled back in the fond belief that the Iraqi people would rise up and oust Saddam. Sadly the marsh Arabs of the area around Basrah did rise up and were massacred for their pains. Likewise with the current war there has been no exit strategy, only the fond belief that democracy would ensue.

As ever our troops do a fantastic job in the face of incredible adversity, and I for one fully applaud and support the job they do, but not necessarily the cause.

Bush and Blair have so much blood on their hands, not only for the troops that have been killed or horrifically maimed, but for the tens of thousands of Iraqi civilians who have also been massacred.

 

[stoy_redstar]

agree 100% mate

 

[Swiss Tony]

Great post J some things never change though im afraid.

Tommy
Then it's Tommy this an Tommy that an Tommy ow's yer soul ?
But it's thin red line of hero's when the drums begin to roll.

Rudyard kipling.

 

[the dark deshrimper]

Firstly, i fully agree with the idea that soldiers should not be heckled on their return home no matter what people's views on the situation. If you have an issue with the war then aim your hatred and protests at those in Westminster. You dont have to treat the soldiers with flowers and kisses, but a bit of mutual respect should come as common courtsey.

The issue about the Iraq boy being paid more compensation than a soldier however is deeply flawed. Firstly, that was one story that papers like The Sun jumped on and ran with. This is not a common occurance as the numerous dead bodies laying around the streets of Iraq show. I will probably got moaned at to high heaven for this next comment, but i have to say that my sympathies lie more strongly with the Iraqi civilians caught in the crossfire than with the English soldiers. The soldiers out there signed up to the army in full knowledge that there is a very real responsibility they would end up in a war situation - the Iraqi citizrens didnt. The English troops are armed and (in most cases) adequately protected - the Iraqi citizens are not. The English soldiers can return home to a quiet and undevasted home - The Iraqi citizens cannot.

Now in this sense i am obviously excluding the citizen milita who roam the streets and am trying to focus more on the average family who had no influence in the course of events. The numbers of English soldiers dead is not nice reading, but in my opinion the death tolls of civilians is much worse. I have the greatest respect for anyone willing to go into the field of battle, but my sympathies and condoloences lie more strongly with the civilians who are havung their lives ripped apart by these wars.

Again, i hasten to add i am not trying to devalue the death of a soldier, but simply place it in contrast to that of a civilian which, in my opinion, is always higher.

 

[J]

The issue about the Iraq boy being paid more compensation than a soldier however is deeply flawed. Firstly, that was one story that papers like The Sun jumped on and ran with. This is not a common occurance as the numerous dead bodies laying around the streets of Iraq show. I will probably got moaned at to high heaven for this next comment, but i have to say that my sympathies lie more strongly with the Iraqi civilians caught in the crossfire than with the English soldiers. The soldiers out there signed up to the army in full knowledge that there is a very real responsibility they would end up in a war situation - the Iraqi citizrens didnt. The English troops are armed and (in most cases) adequately protected - the Iraqi citizens are not. The English soldiers can return home to a quiet and undevasted home - The Iraqi citizens cannot.

.

Fair point, i know these people (civvies) didn't ask for war, but they were happy enough when saddam went weren't they? Not even a Million Militia or Insurgent Iraqi lives are worth that of a British (not english!!) soldier. That's just my view, it's a pretty noble thing to go into someone elses ****ed up country and try and help them. The ***** wanted helping...

the Iraqis wanted saddam gone, but they didn't want the coalition in charge, so that leaves the insurgents or the "elected governement" which are run by militias. Now, the only hope for these iraqis are us and the americans. Unfortunately, that is the stark reality of it.

 

[stoy_redstar]

Fair point, i know these people (civvies) didn't ask for war, but they were happy enough when saddam went weren't they? Not even a Million Iraqi lives are worth that of a British (not english!!) soldier. That's just my view, it's a pretty noble thing to go into someone elses ****ed up country and try and help them. The ***** wanted helping...

the Iraqis wanted saddam gone, but they didn't want the coalition in charge, so that leaves the insurgents or the "elected governement" which are run by militias. Now, the only hope for these iraqis are us and the americans. Unfortunately, that is the stark reality of it.

well if thats the case british soldiers should not be involved into any conflict anywhere acording to you?......and are u sure about iraqis wanting saddam gone, or was this much more down to what bush/blair wanted? dont forget that none of us really know how these people actually feel as all we get to see of it is what BBC decides to show us
cant help to think that you went off track from a pretty solid opening argument which i agreed with 100%

 

[J]

well if thats the case british soldiers should not be involved into any conflict anywhere acording to you?......and are u sure about iraqis wanting saddam gone, or was this much more down to what bush/blair wanted? dont forget that none of us really know how these people actually feel as all we get to see of it is what BBC decides to show us
cant help to think that you went off track from a pretty solid opening argument which i agreed with 100%

Sorry, i didn't mean civvy iraqis, i meant insurgents and or militias. Duely edited :)

You only had to see the faces and reactions, of the general public in Iraq when saddam was gone. Read a couple of books as well, and it gives a great picture of the situation arose from his departure.

 

[stoy_redstar]

Sorry, i didn't mean civvy iraqis, i meant insurgents and or militias. Duely edited :)

You only had to see the faces and reactions, of the general public in Iraq when saddam was gone. Read a couple of books as well, and it gives a great picture of the situation arose from his departure.

fair play in that case couldnt agree more. personally feel quite cynical about political motives of Iraq war, but have to say after meeting a number of soldiers i have nothing but total respect for them.

 

[J]

fair play in that case couldnt agree more. personally feel quite cynical about political motives of Iraq war, but have to say after meeting a number of soldiers i have nothing but total respect for them.

Which is fantastic, but it's the people who have no respect for the forces personell.. i don't understand it, and surely it's not me being naive? But how could anyone disrespect them. Astonishing.

 

[Pubey]

i agree with all of your post J - i might not see eye to eye with some of your politics, but when it comes to supporting our armed forces i'm right there next to you. my best friend has just got into the marines and the mixed feelings i feel have been very challenging... however the fact that he is willing to literally lay down his life, to fight on behalf of our nation and to not quibble, moan or give up is testiment to everyone in the armed services, and something that everyone who calls themselves british should respect.

if you don't agree with the war, then good one you, but direct your views and feels and protest to the people who make the decisions, not the selfless heroes, with their dodgy weapons and equipment, who are willing to be at the frontline

 

[Harold Bishop Killer]

Brillant Post - would give you a green but apparently I have to share it around first. Damn sharing - gets you no where in life!

I have quite a few mates in the armed forces who have been and left Iraq and one that is still in Afghan. These blokes lay down their lives for our nation and deserve the utmost respect. Yes they chose to join the forces, they knew what they would getting themselves into but could you lay there in the dead of night, not moving, not making a sound, waiting for the first shots to be fired. Knowing that night could be your last? Knowing you may never see your wife/girlfriend/partner again. Knowing your children may grow up without their dad or mum? I couldnt. I am stuck in a warm office in Sydney, miles away from any war. These guys are heroes in some respects.

A great line is from Joe Arpaio, sheriff of Maricopa (Arizona). He has set up the 'Tent City Jail' (you may have seen or heard about it). anway, one day the inmates were complaining about the heat in the tents. His response

'It's between 120 to 130 degrees in Iraq and our soldiers are living in tents too, and they have to walk all day in the sun, wearing full battle gear and get shot at, and they have not committed any crimes, so shut your damned mouths!'

 

[canveyshrimper]

Sorry, i didn't mean civvy iraqis, i meant insurgents and or militias. Duely edited :)

You only had to see the faces and reactions, of the general public in Iraq when saddam was gone. Read a couple of books as well, and it gives a great picture of the situation arose from his departure.

Just to take slight issue with you there J, one mans insurgent/militia is another's freedom fighter. Were the French/Norwegian/Dutch etc resistance during WWII insurgents/militia? Probably they were to the German occupying forces but not to the people who lived under the jackboot. Nor for that matter the Allies, despite the fact that many of these groups were communist or of other political leanings.

While I accept that Al Qaeda are now in Iraq which they plainly weren't before, I don't think the Iraqi people had the strength or will to rise up against Saddam. However they do see the coalition forces as an occupying army. This is where the lack of an exit strategy has knackered the whole cause, if there ever was one beyond regime change/oil or vengeance.

 

[OldBlueLady]

Top post J, I know there's a lot of mockery of the Americans but one thing I agree with them on 100% is the way they respect their troops. You go to any of the Florida theme parks and there's reduced admission for them and their families, and in Sea World, they're asked to stand up and receive the applause of the audience at the Shamu shows. The way the Americans take a pride in their flag and their country is in sharp contrast to the way we are expected to behave in ours.

 

[Holy Joe]

Seems like an appropriate place to plug this

http://www.redratcraftbrewery.co.uk/page16a.html

Buy the boys a beer (and yourself one too!) - a tasty brew it is as well (I've had a couple of cases of the 1759 Anglian Regiment).

 

[J]

... and another 4 to the list.

 

[Firestorm]

I can't understand why the Anti War protesters are taking it out on the troops as if its their decision . Thy are doing a job (and a bl00dy dangerous one at that) with damn site worse consequences if they screw up or do not do as their "boss" tells them than any other job.
However the anti war protesters are against the loss of life full stop, the troops as well as anyone else involved, anti death and destruction might be a better way of putting it and the troops ought to understand that.
regarding the compensation, I am sure MtS will correct me on this but legally Volenti non fit injuria, may well applie, basically it means that means that if someone willingly places themselves in a position where harm might result, knowing that some degree of harm might result, they cannot then sue if harm does in fact happen. This would be applicable to the Soldier but not to Iraqi civilians and would probably have some impact on the level of damages awarded.
As for the insurgents, as Canvey said, the nature of someone resisting occupying forces is wholly dependent on the side you are on. The French Resistance were Freedom fighters to the French and Terrorists to the Germans. The Taliban have been both Freedom fighters (With the Americans against the Russians ) and Terrorists (against the Americans when they changed their mind). As for the salaries, well its appalling....the guys are putting their lives on the line for a job, Deep sea divers do a dangerous job and require specific training and are rewarded accordingly, so should the Troops. (regardless of whether you agree with the job they have been told to do)