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fbm

Blue tinted optimistā­
Joined
Oct 28, 2003
Messages
10,054
Location
Cloud cuckoo land
This isn't intended as a rose tinted post and I am certainly not seeing all things as sunshine and flowers as someone suggested on another thread.

But at times like this it is very easy to be swept along on a bandwagon of fear and despair, with an awful lot of statements being made that are really without foundation. Assumptions are made and people add 2 and 2 together and come up with 5.

So before there are any mass protests, full page ads etc, lets look at some hard facts. These are NOT opinions - they are facts.

1) Are we in administration? No. I was tempted to put not yet, but then none of us have access to the bank accounts and finances so none of us know how close that is. We may go into administration or we may not. But we aren't there yet.

2) Are we struggling on the pitch? No. The performances have been good but results have not gone our way. We have been unlucky in some games and mugged by the ref in another. One way of looking at it is that we have not won for 5 matches. Another is to say we have only lost 1 in 5. Things certainly have been more encouraging that many thought.

3) Are we in danger of dropping out of the football league? No. We are a division above that scenario.

4) Are we under a transfer embargo? No. No sign of one either.

5) Do we have a dwindling support? No. Decent crowds so far, good advance season ticket sales.

6) Have we ever had points deducted? No.


Now just those 6 points put us in a better position than over half of the entire football league.

In addition we have the added benefit (although some may not see it as such) of having the club run as a proper business. Ron has had a wage structure in place and has refused to break it as well as keeping a tight rein on the pursestrings.

So what exactly is it that we are so worried about?

Well, we have a small squad that became smaller yesterday. A small, tight knit squad induces team spirit and Tilly has always wanted a small squad so that isn't of Ron's making. Granted, I don't think Tilly wanted it to be THIS small but we currently have 18 players of which 2 are loanees. Before the three subs rule came in it was quite normal for teams to only have that many in the squad anyway and some of the best teams in history have played an entire season and won the league using only 17 players. It's only the 7 subs on the bench rule that highlights this shortage and whilst there is little to no strength in depth it could easily be worse.

What we do have is a local paper that for some reason seems to be keen on stirring things up to such a degree that everyone is now in a state of near panic.

I do not know Geoff King and have never spoken to him but certainly it seems as though he could have handled certain matters better. People I know who HAVE met him indicate he didn't graduate from charm school but then to be a good CE you aren't aiming to be popular. Sometimes decisions need to be made that are unpopular and all good business men have to have that ruthless streak and not let the heart rule the head. This is incredibly difficult to do with a football club as it is such an emotive sport.

Personally, if the club ARE in difficulties, I am relieved that action is being taken to address that by cutting the wage bill. If SUFC were a quoted company on the FTSE yesterdays announcements would have had a positive effect on the share price.

Interesting that Chris Phillips is attacking Ron Martin and the board over supposed financial issues yet he was one who, all last season and so far this season has been calling for the club to spend money and sign someone on a permanent basis! In Spinners interview he quotes Spinner as questioning where the Freddy Eastwood sale money has gone. Well, the club is still alive, the stadium is apparently still on the horizon and the accounts are public so there really wasn't any need to print that as it makes Spinner look thick and Chris look vindictive. Maybe he is; it could be that he was royally cheesed off with RM for criticising him last season over some mis-reportings that were blazoned across the Echo.

There is one quote in Geoff Kings article that however says it all for me and we would all do well to remember it. It was in response to a direct question about fears that the club may go into administration and his answer was

"No. It seems some people don't have anything better to do than start these rumours.
It's all well and good moaning from the outside but these people want to be in our seats and then they would realise how hard it is to run a football club."

That last highlighted sentence is the biggest fact of the lot.

Finally, to those who say the club should have been more up front and honest, consider this; lets say we got drawn away at a biggish London club in round 2 of the Carling Cup and won in front of a decent crowd, then got a plum draw again which was picked as a TV game.

There would have been no need for anything to be said at all yet.

If Ron is guilty of anything it is being too open about certain things and giving too much information to people who have no idea how to correctly process it.

It may well be that all the prophets of doom are proved correct. However, it may well also be that we run a very tight ship, scarpe through the next season or two and then emerge stronger in a more favourable economic climate with a new ground, new facilities and a better future.

But either way, none of us know FOR CERTAIN what is going on and it seems unlikely that we ever will know. Just be grateful we aren't supporters of any of the 90-odd clubs that have gone into administration since the mid 1980's, the 8 teams that have had or still have transfer embargoes, the 11 former league teams that are now in the conference, the 9 teams that currently occupy the relegation places in the FL, the 24 teams in L2 (all of which stand a chance of dropping out of the league), the God knows how many teams who have had points deductions in the past for one reason or another or in fact any side that isn't Southend United who, as we all know, are by far the greatest team the world has ever seen.
 
Have we loaned out players for financial reasons. Yes.
Has Prior received his money along with the hospice. No.
Do we owe a large amount of money to HMRC. Yes.
Is G King A PR disaster. Yes.
Do the club have a ****ing clue. No.
 
One of the best posts I've read on here ever, let alone the last few days.

People are hearing rumours, reading stories in the Echo, and twisting peoples words and taking it as fact.

The amount of people talking about protesting, sacking GK, refusing to go to the ground until GK is gone etc etc has been unbelievable. We need to take a step back. Log off for the rest of the night or whatever.

Some people seem incredibly wound up, but as yet nothing has been said to suggest we are struggling financially. Revell mentioned it, but for all we know he was moved on to clear space for the out of favour Premiership left back we was after that didn't materialise. Him and Betsy being cleared from the wage budget may mean that when the transfer window re-opens next week we could have two better players in that help move the Club forward.

This board could easily be a very different place this time next week with a win vs Orient friday night, Dervite and Daniel Jones (Or another other left back) signed on 93 day loans and Sawyer's knee injury not being too bad.

Lets chill out, have a beer and get behind the Club.
 
Have we loaned out players for financial reasons. Yes.
Has Prior received his money along with the hospice. No.
Do we owe a large amount of money to HMRC. Yes.
Is G King A PR disaster. Yes.
Do the club have a ****ing clue. No.

Firstly, it is not a crime to loan players out for financial reasons. As I said, I'm pleased we are taking positive action.

Spinner and the hospice haven't been paid... yet. But they will.

We are not the only body to owe HMRC money and Ron has said it will be paid so then we won't owe it any more.

I agree about GK but nonetheless someone like him probably exists in every successful company going. Alan Sugar isn't exactly a sweet talker.

The last bit doesn't qualify as fact J. It's your opinion they don't have a clue.

Compare our plight to that of Luton, Rotherham, Bournemouth, Southampton, Chester, Morecambe, Accrington, Lincoln, Darlington (need I go on?)... we've got nothing much to moan about mate.
 
It means the Club (Southend United) don't (do not, not have) have (to own, posess) a ****ing (something which colchester fans do with sheep) clue (something Sherlock holmes used to pick up to find a solution / answer) Hope this helps.
 
We are not the only body to owe HMRC money and Ron has said it will be paid so then we won't owe it any more.


Because everything Ron has said lately has proved to be true, hasn't it ?
 
This isn't intended as a rose tinted post and I am certainly not seeing all things as sunshine and flowers as someone suggested on another thread.

But at times like this it is very easy to be swept along on a bandwagon of fear and despair, with an awful lot of statements being made that are really without foundation. Assumptions are made and people add 2 and 2 together and come up with 5.

So before there are any mass protests, full page ads etc, lets look at some hard facts. These are NOT opinions - they are facts.

1) Are we in administration? No. I was tempted to put not yet, but then none of us have access to the bank accounts and finances so none of us know how close that is. We may go into administration or we may not. But we aren't there yet.

2) Are we struggling on the pitch? No. The performances have been good but results have not gone our way. We have been unlucky in some games and mugged by the ref in another. One way of looking at it is that we have not won for 5 matches. Another is to say we have only lost 1 in 5. Things certainly have been more encouraging that many thought.

3) Are we in danger of dropping out of the football league? No. We are a division above that scenario.

4) Are we under a transfer embargo? No. No sign of one either.

5) Do we have a dwindling support? No. Decent crowds so far, good advance season ticket sales.

6) Have we ever had points deducted? No.


Now just those 6 points put us in a better position than over half of the entire football league.

In addition we have the added benefit (although some may not see it as such) of having the club run as a proper business. Ron has had a wage structure in place and has refused to break it as well as keeping a tight rein on the pursestrings.

So what exactly is it that we are so worried about?

Well, we have a small squad that became smaller yesterday. A small, tight knit squad induces team spirit and Tilly has always wanted a small squad so that isn't of Ron's making. Granted, I don't think Tilly wanted it to be THIS small but we currently have 18 players of which 2 are loanees. Before the three subs rule came in it was quite normal for teams to only have that many in the squad anyway and some of the best teams in history have played an entire season and won the league using only 17 players. It's only the 7 subs on the bench rule that highlights this shortage and whilst there is little to no strength in depth it could easily be worse.

What we do have is a local paper that for some reason seems to be keen on stirring things up to such a degree that everyone is now in a state of near panic.

I do not know Geoff King and have never spoken to him but certainly it seems as though he could have handled certain matters better. People I know who HAVE met him indicate he didn't graduate from charm school but then to be a good CE you aren't aiming to be popular. Sometimes decisions need to be made that are unpopular and all good business men have to have that ruthless streak and not let the heart rule the head. This is incredibly difficult to do with a football club as it is such an emotive sport.

Personally, if the club ARE in difficulties, I am relieved that action is being taken to address that by cutting the wage bill. If SUFC were a quoted company on the FTSE yesterdays announcements would have had a positive effect on the share price.

Interesting that Chris Phillips is attacking Ron Martin and the board over supposed financial issues yet he was one who, all last season and so far this season has been calling for the club to spend money and sign someone on a permanent basis! In Spinners interview he quotes Spinner as questioning where the Freddy Eastwood sale money has gone. Well, the club is still alive, the stadium is apparently still on the horizon and the accounts are public so there really wasn't any need to print that as it makes Spinner look thick and Chris look vindictive. Maybe he is; it could be that he was royally cheesed off with RM for criticising him last season over some mis-reportings that were blazoned across the Echo.

There is one quote in Geoff Kings article that however says it all for me and we would all do well to remember it. It was in response to a direct question about fears that the club may go into administration and his answer was

"No. It seems some people don't have anything better to do than start these rumours.
It's all well and good moaning from the outside but these people want to be in our seats and then they would realise how hard it is to run a football club."

That last highlighted sentence is the biggest fact of the lot.

Finally, to those who say the club should have been more up front and honest, consider this; lets say we got drawn away at a biggish London club in round 2 of the Carling Cup and won in front of a decent crowd, then got a plum draw again which was picked as a TV game.

There would have been no need for anything to be said at all yet.

If Ron is guilty of anything it is being too open about certain things and giving too much information to people who have no idea how to correctly process it.

It may well be that all the prophets of doom are proved correct. However, it may well also be that we run a very tight ship, scarpe through the next season or two and then emerge stronger in a more favourable economic climate with a new ground, new facilities and a better future.

But either way, none of us know FOR CERTAIN what is going on and it seems unlikely that we ever will know. Just be grateful we aren't supporters of any of the 90-odd clubs that have gone into administration since the mid 1980's, the 8 teams that have had or still have transfer embargoes, the 11 former league teams that are now in the conference, the 9 teams that currently occupy the relegation places in the FL, the 24 teams in L2 (all of which stand a chance of dropping out of the league), the God knows how many teams who have had points deductions in the past for one reason or another or in fact any side that isn't Southend United who, as we all know, are by far the greatest team the world has ever seen.
Definatly need to take something out your back end and get real. The club is in a state and have recently waited for a home fixtures to pay wages. The current aquad will obtain mid table (if lucky) and no matter what you say about performances so far they do not earn you points! The league table does not read played 48 won 0 performances 48 points 144 - champions Southend united! In any business football or not if you do not treat people well they become less motivated and want out! This is exactly the way it is heading with a number of players contracts set to expire and are currently waiting for the club to pay wages.
 
Definatly need to take something out your back end and get real. The club is in a state and have recently waited for a home fixtures to pay wages. The current aquad will obtain mid table (if lucky) and no matter what you say about performances so far they do not earn you points! The league table does not read played 48 won 0 performances 48 points 144 - champions Southend united! In any business football or not if you do not treat people well they become less motivated and want out! This is exactly the way it is heading with a number of players contracts set to expire and are currently waiting for the club to pay wages.

OK then bloke with all the answers, whilst I am taking something "out of my back end" would you care to tell us what you would like to happen and how that can be achieved. Do us all a favour and think it through a bit before responding so we stand a chance of taking you seriously.

And actually this season and next I'd be quite happy with mid table. I certainly wouldn't want to go up until we get the new ground.
 
I like to think I'm pretty level-headed. For a living I analyse situations and to do that you have to remove emotion, look at the evidence and at times use common-sense to fill in any gaps.

Looking at this situation, it is possible to make the arguement that fbm makes. After all, every noise coming out of the Club says that we're doing ok financially. We're not in Administration, we're free to sign players and according to the Club the winding-up petition will be dismissed just as soon as a large cheque from Sainsburys turns up on our doorstep. Plus Betsy and Revell were just two squad players and to be honest I said in the Summer that we had too many strikers and should be looking to get rid of one.

The trouble with the 'everything is fine, just chill-out' picture painted above is that it just doesn't wash with me. There's too many gaps.

My summary of the way things are, based on my understanding of events to date, is that when we got promoted in 2005/2006 we entered into a World where our income increased massively. More TV money, a run to the last-eight of a major cup competition and ultimately the sale of the second most valuable player in our history led to greatly increased turnover compared to anything we'd seen previously. However due to necessary investment on the playing staff to boost a squad which had achieved back-to-back promotions but which was likely to be outclassed at the next level our outgoings increased equally and in the Summer of 2007 we were relegated and broke even on the Accounts.

The next season our average gates were down 2,000, mainly due to greatly diminished away attendances, we had no international striker to sell for a seven-figure sum and we didn't have a long cup run meaning that turnover reduced substantially. But at the same time the wage bill for contracts which were signed, or re-negotiated, in the Championship were still having to be paid at that level, and the Club continued to invest money on new signings (Bailey, Revell, Barnard & Walker costing well over half a million between them). With income down and expenditure constant we returned massive losses.

The next season income dropped still further, despite the boost of a cracking cup performance at Chelsea but still the likes of Foran & Clarke cashed in big pay-cheques every week. According to Ron Martin we were one of the top five wage payers in this division last season. Also according to him the accounts to August 2009 will show a slightly greater loss to the one reported the previous year (Ā£2.1m IIRC).

The Accounts show that the losses we've incurred and the debts that we've run up are financed by loans from Directors and from associated companies (not least SEL). That's a good thing in the sense that it means that they are unlikely to be called in (I believe we don't run an overdraft so we don't have to worry about an outside organisation like a bank calling in our lending lines), but the first rule of business is that Cash is King. The losses that we've made have destroyed any liquidity in the business which is why we're allegedly more likely to be late in paying bills and allegedly more likely to be using cash earmarked for things like a tax bill or for a "contractual obligation" to pass on funds for a testimonial.

If I was looking at these accounts and they weren't for Southend United Football Club, I'd be worried as I'd be looking at a company with real cash-flow difficulties and who's entire possibility of continuing as a going concerns rests on the ongoing support of the Directors and on one of their creditors not trying to wind them up. The fact that I know these accounts are for Southend United would make me feel slightly better as I think there's little chance of the Chairman pulling the plug. If we can generate enough cash to pay off the winding up petition we'll be ok in the short term. If that means letting a few players go then that means letting a few players go.

So with that being the situation as I understand it, what personally annoys me (bringing emotion back into things for one moment) is when the Club either make promises that they can't keep (we will sign players) or sling mud at a player who is on the way out in order to detract attention from the real reason why we have to reduce the squad.

I don't think that the Club are totally at fault for where we are today. We all wanted the player investment. We wanted to be successful and we over-reached ourselves (and demonstrated entirely why we need a new ground and new income streams to compete in the Second Tier). We could have gone bust a decade ago and were saved by the people in charge now and those same people have moved the Club forward and have taken us closer to a new stadium and a new future than we've ever had before. Ron Martin and Geoff King aren't villains in all this and I'm fairly happy to trust our future to them. I just ask that they don't lie to us and don't insult our intelligence along the way.
 
Definatly need to take something out your back end and get real. The club is in a state and have recently waited for a home fixtures to pay wages. The current aquad will obtain mid table (if lucky) and no matter what you say about performances so far they do not earn you points! The league table does not read played 48 won 0 performances 48 points 144 - champions Southend united! In any business football or not if you do not treat people well they become less motivated and want out! This is exactly the way it is heading with a number of players contracts set to expire and are currently waiting for the club to pay wages.

Do you have evidence of this?
 
Definatly need to take something out your back end and get real. The club is in a state and have recently waited for a home fixtures to pay wages. The current aquad will obtain mid table (if lucky) and no matter what you say about performances so far they do not earn you points! The league table does not read played 48 won 0 performances 48 points 144 - champions Southend united! In any business football or not if you do not treat people well they become less motivated and want out! This is exactly the way it is heading with a number of players contracts set to expire and are currently waiting for the club to pay wages.

Again you make statements that you have no proof of whatsoever. Opinions are one thing, beliefs are another but in order to avoid coming across as someone that's, shall we say, half a brick short of a full hod, it may be better to actually clarify that it's your opinion or belief.

If you do have proof then I retract all that and await your reply.
 
So with that being the situation as I understand it, what personally annoys me (bringing emotion back into things for one moment) is when the Club either make promises that they can't keep (we will sign players) or sling mud at a player who is on the way out in order to detract attention from the real reason why we have to reduce the squad.

I don't think that the Club are totally at fault for where we are today. We all wanted the player investment. We wanted to be successful and we over-reached ourselves (and demonstrated entirely why we need a new ground and new income streams to compete in the Second Tier). We could have gone bust a decade ago and were saved by the people in charge now and those same people have moved the Club forward and have taken us closer to a new stadium and a new future than we've ever had before. Ron Martin and Geoff King aren't villains in all this and I'm fairly happy to trust our future to them. I just ask that they don't lie to us and don't insult our intelligence along the way.

I agree with all of that Beefy, but have cut it to these last two paragraphs to make the most important point to the Club and that is that you treat us as if we are stupid at your peril. A succession of lies and PR balls ups means there will be a lot of angry people at the AGM tomorrow and also at the Orient game.
 
What bothers me most about this whole Echo thing is Geoffrey King's surly teenager act. To say he can't understand why the fans are concerned that Spencer Prior's testimonial money hasn't gone where it should have is ridiculous.
 
Sorry FBM but dont know how "team spirit" is going to be helped by discarding 2 of our best professionals who have never once said a bad word about anyone at the club. Wouldnt be surprised if some of the players agents are already preparing moves elsewhere come January. Yes we had a small squad in promotion season but we oozed quality all over the park- Flavs, Spinner, Barrett, Maher, Gower, Eastwood. And they were OUR players not loanees.
 
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