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A very good precise of the situation,Elstree Blue.I really believe Ron Martin doesn't care what the outcome.South Eastern Leisure and Martin Dawn have ringfenced Roots Hall and the training ground.Obtained very cheaply,by the way.Not at its proper worth.Why oh why do people get sucked in by RM.
The only redeeming feature,is that Southend Council will not let the building on Roots Hall until Fossetts starts.There is a covenent on Roots that stipulates only leisure facilities,unless the council change it.Ron Martin is out of his depth running a large organisation.The sooner we see the back of him and "yes man" Geoffrey King the better.The board have not been of much use either
.I really think the club can survive in the long run,perhaps going down a league,but then under a new regime having a much healthier base.
Up the Blues.
 
Not that I'm saying you're scaremongering, by the way. It's more things like Chris Phillips going on SSN saying that Barrett, Barnard, Francis, McCormack and Moussa are going to be sold by the Administrators which does more harm than it does good.

Eh? Have I missed something?!

BTW, the original post is one of the best things I've read recently on SZ and asks all the questions that most of us have been wanting answers too against the pro-Ron brigade.
 
Because he thought that he'd be able to get a further deferral prior to the Winding Up petition being heard. Its worth remembering that the Administration threat has come from HMRC and not from the Club. If it had been Voluntary Administration and the Club was still not fund-raising then I can see where the criticism would be but he's always said that this will be resolved and I think he needs to be given the chance to come through with that.

It's great that our fanbase are being pro-active in their fundraising and we may very well need this fighting fund one day, but until next week we won't know what position we're going to be in and therefore I think some of the scaremongering we've seen recently may be premature. Let's wait and see.

Sorry Beefy but HMRC hve done us a big favour by changing it to an administration order froma winding up petition which if had been left there wouldn't actually be a football club today!

To think they would wait any longer is pie in the sky as SUFC had had more than enough time to pay and had this been any other creditor we probably would have been wound up a long time ago.
 
I think EB has got it about right but, unfortunately, RM still does control our club's future and will continue to do so.

I also find it distasteful the way RM issued new shares when he knew the woeful position of the finances. I suspect many loyal people took him at his word and lost money they could ill afford to.

Anyone who bought shares should have taken independent advice if they didn't understand how they worked. Unquoted shares are difficult if not impossible to trade. Anyway, no one has actually lost any money yet. That's the thing about shares - they go up and down with the value of a company. At the moment they're on the floor, but had the development gone ahead as planned they wouldn't have been. If the company had ever made it to the stock market they may well have profited.

But anyone who understands companies and shares or who actually took the advice they would have been advised to take (it's a legal requirement I believe in any share issue to rge the cprospective purchaser to take independent advice) would have taken the view that you were giving money to the club that in all probability would never be returned.

Caveat Emptor - buyer beware!
 
ShrimperZone .com limited bought shares purely as 1) a donation to the club and 2) to enable attendance at the AGM and to obtain a set of the accounts. It was never envisaged that money would ever be made from those shares.

The shares in ShrimperZone.com.limited however are a different kettle of fish.
 
Sorry Beefy but HMRC hve done us a big favour by changing it to an administration order froma winding up petition which if had been left there wouldn't actually be a football club today!

Yeah but it wouldn't have been left there for the exact reason that you say. Worst case we'd have gone into Voluntary Administration on Wednesday morning but presumably the Club were going to try to get a last minute extension from HMRC and were confident of being able to get it. Hence the "destructive" action rant from Ron when HMRC pre-empted us.
 
I bought some shares, mainly as it would enable me to attend the AGM. I certainly never expected any sort of return on them....
 
Yes fair enough fbm, I read the prospectus and concluded the only value was to have the certificae on the wall. My concern is that possibly not everybody has your insight and knowledge and RM was unfairly playing on supporterrs loyalty.

I believe that the share issue was the start of a desperate search for funds, which obviously still continues. Lets hope all is not lost.
 
I've never met the man, so haven't seen his skills first hand, but you've got to hand it to him. Ron Martin must have incredibly slick PR skills. He seems to be like teflon. Whenever there is something bad to face, either someone else is put forward to take the flak or he somehow wins people over.

I'm not looking for a witch hunt but I'm appalled at what's happened to our club. And I don't think we know the half of it yet. But I'm equally surprised to see several intelligent posters on here who I respect even now still not laying the blame where it is due. The club has been financially mismanaged in an appalling way such that the club's on its knees and yet some people still want to believe that Ron Martin is the man to sort it out or it's someone else's fault.

I mentioned a couple of weeks ago that in my opinion the Jobson and Martin eras bear remarkable similarities - they took over the club when it was in a bad state, created some financial stability for a while, before things going really downhill at the end of their reigns, leaving the club in a very bad position. The one big difference is their PR skills. Just before Vic Jobson left, I don't think a single person wanted him to remain. Those who knew that he had done a lot of good for the club originally believed his continued presence was ruining the club. And he didn't do much to endear himself so he didn't have many friends in the end.

Ron Martin came in and initially saved the club when we needed someone to take over, but instead of buying the stadium and training ground to clear the debts so that the club could go forward, the debts have spiralled and we are now left with massive debts and few assets. Plus bigger losses than ever before. He has taken the club to depths that we didn't even see under Jobson and yet, despite all this, there are plenty of people who STILL believe that he is going to sort it out or that this is somehow not his fault. I'm amazed that anyone can still think that. What will it take? Why does he have this power to convince, even now? It's an incredible skill.

1 The club is losing a ridiculous amount of money. The number is worth repeating because some people don't seem to realise how big it is: £2.4m a year. I know when we hear the government talking about £175bn deficits, £2.4m doesn't sound like a lot. But it is unbelievable for a company of Southend United's size. The club didn't use to lose that sort of figure every year. And yet some very intelligent people on here still believe it's just "cash flow". No - cash flow is a problem getting cash, which could be a short-term issue. Losing over £2m a year on a turnover of about 2-3 times that is not something that is sustainable, credit crunch or no credit crunch. If there's a cash flow issue, it's because Mr PR's other companies can't borrow the money from finance institutions to fund the club's massive and unsustainable losses (which they would do with the aim of enabling those other companies to make a big return from the new property development).

2 The club being about to go bust or in administration is also somehow not his fault. It's a global recession. So why isn't EVERY OTHER lower league club facing the same problem? Are all comparable clubs losing £2.4m a year?

3 Some people say that the problems were all inherited. No. Things were not good when he took over ABOUT 12 YEARS AGO, but they stabilised. We broke even, lost small amounts or even went into profit for a few years. (Credit is due for the financial management during that period of stability.) We lost ownership of our major assets to keep the club going when he took over, but that's not why we're losing £2.4m a year NOW - an unsustainable amount of money that has little to do with debts at the end of the Jobson era.

4 We apparently need gates of 8k a game to break even. That's rubbish. Firstly, our attendances are higher now than when we used to get 3k-4k a game. Secondly, even 8k a game (which we've not been so far off in the last few years) would come nowhere near covering a £2.4m a year shortfall. More recently, the goalposts seem to have moved again, without people questioning.

5 Ridiculous amounts of money were gambled after promotion to the Championship. That wasn't the manager's fault. The manager should be given a budget each year to spend on players' transfers and wages and to spend that budget as he sees fit. It's the person who released the purse strings to Tilly who was at fault. And I'm sorry if that means Mr PR would have upset many fans demanding "we make signings" at whatever cost. Mr Martin's job was to ensure the financial stability of the club on the not so remote possibility that we went down from the Championship. If relegation cost us financially, it was because of poor future financial planning by the board.

6 Prior/The Echo tried to reveal some of what had been going on in time for some tough questions at the AGM. But Mr PR was able to divert anger towards the people reporting the sorry state of the club with a smokescreen over the fact that they put an extra nought on the end of the figure. So what? Wind taken out of sails as people believed Mr PR against those nasty journalists! Suddenly, it's naughty Echo because they are operated by Col U fans! Classic spin, and it worked. It took the heat out of the AGM. He also made a generous donation to Little Havens - a nice thing to do from Ron personally, and irrespective of whether he intended this it certainly had the effect of calming a lot of people down and winning them over again.

7 Even those difficult questions that were asked at the AGM were cleverly deflected with Mr PR's charm. "I'll see you next year" with a smile, etc. "The HMRC debt will be paid". Err - how? Especially if it's escalated well beyond the initial huge £700k? Unexplained at the time - we were just encouraged to trust him.

8 HMRC tactics are wrong. They're strangling the club. Forcing the club to arrange payment in 1 week instead of 6 weeks. The club has had plenty of time to pay off this money. The fact was, it couldn't. HMRC has been very lenient and waited long enough. And it should have put the club into liquidation. The fact that it didn't and we have administration looming instead is a great result as far as I'm concerned. So I'm grateful to the HMRC for not closing the club down on Wednesday.

9 Whenever there's a bit of disturbance or questions, out pops a "blog" or something similar, and suddenly everyone is on side again, and forget about the real issues or whether he actually delivers. I'm sure another one will come out today in time for the home game, and sure enough some people will be put off protesting.

10 Why has Mr PR been able to get away with singing his own virtues by saying that the club has not been charged for rent whilst at Roots Hall by the company that owns the stadium, whilst also not explaining why the club's finances would be better off at his new stadium? The owner of Fossetts Farm would be entitled to revenue from the casino, etc. Southend United Football Club would not be entitled to that extra money. Instead, the club would be a tenant. Surely that would involve paying rent and even bigger losses than the eye-watering ones now? Why has Mr PR never properly explained how the new stadium would make financial sense FOR THE CLUB and not just for his other companies?

11 Sorry if this sounds populist, but where on earth has the money gone? An extraordinary amount of one-off successes that should have been a bonus over and above what had been budgeted for the year have still not stopped large financial losses. All the extra money from higher gates, success in league and cups, excellent cup draws, TV money, etc should NOT have left us in this position - even if I'm not stupid enough to believe that this money gave us cash to burn.

12 Where's the transparency in the accounts? What has the massive "costs" and "expenses" been spent on? If it really was on new stadium costs etc, why should the football club have picked that up? Surely, the owner of the development (another company, NOT the football club) should have paid for that? Has the money coming out of the football club been solely for the club's interests? If so, where has been the clear explanation for the break down of the "costs" and "expenses" and why they have mushroomed so much compared to before.

13 There have been some incredible sceptics on here a few months ago, asking tough questions. Ron Martin also spoke to them personally, and they seemed to have fallen under his spell. Also the pro-Uncle Ron brigade managed to shout them down until their voices have no longer been heard on here.

What will it take for "Uncle Ron's" magic spell to really be broken for some people? What would he have to do? Even if the club goes into administration or even goes bust, some people will still believe it was nothing to do with Uncle Ron.

If we have a club left at all, I hope someone can come in who doesn't just have silky PR skills but who actually runs the club in the club's best long-term interests.

this man speaks sense. exactly what i am thinking but he put it across in a much better way.
 
I've never met the man, so haven't seen his skills first hand, but you've got to hand it to him. Ron Martin must have incredibly slick PR skills. He seems to be like teflon. Whenever there is something bad to face, either someone else is put forward to take the flak or he somehow wins people over.

I'm not looking for a witch hunt but I'm appalled at what's happened to our club. And I don't think we know the half of it yet. But I'm equally surprised to see several intelligent posters on here who I respect even now still not laying the blame where it is due. The club has been financially mismanaged in an appalling way such that the club's on its knees and yet some people still want to believe that Ron Martin is the man to sort it out or it's someone else's fault.

I mentioned a couple of weeks ago that in my opinion the Jobson and Martin eras bear remarkable similarities - they took over the club when it was in a bad state, created some financial stability for a while, before things going really downhill at the end of their reigns, leaving the club in a very bad position. The one big difference is their PR skills. Just before Vic Jobson left, I don't think a single person wanted him to remain. Those who knew that he had done a lot of good for the club originally believed his continued presence was ruining the club. And he didn't do much to endear himself so he didn't have many friends in the end.

Ron Martin came in and initially saved the club when we needed someone to take over, but instead of buying the stadium and training ground to clear the debts so that the club could go forward, the debts have spiralled and we are now left with massive debts and few assets. Plus bigger losses than ever before. He has taken the club to depths that we didn't even see under Jobson and yet, despite all this, there are plenty of people who STILL believe that he is going to sort it out or that this is somehow not his fault. I'm amazed that anyone can still think that. What will it take? Why does he have this power to convince, even now? It's an incredible skill.

1 The club is losing a ridiculous amount of money. The number is worth repeating because some people don't seem to realise how big it is: £2.4m a year. I know when we hear the government talking about £175bn deficits, £2.4m doesn't sound like a lot. But it is unbelievable for a company of Southend United's size. The club didn't use to lose that sort of figure every year. And yet some very intelligent people on here still believe it's just "cash flow". No - cash flow is a problem getting cash, which could be a short-term issue. Losing over £2m a year on a turnover of about 2-3 times that is not something that is sustainable, credit crunch or no credit crunch. If there's a cash flow issue, it's because Mr PR's other companies can't borrow the money from finance institutions to fund the club's massive and unsustainable losses (which they would do with the aim of enabling those other companies to make a big return from the new property development).

2 The club being about to go bust or in administration is also somehow not his fault. It's a global recession. So why isn't EVERY OTHER lower league club facing the same problem? Are all comparable clubs losing £2.4m a year?

3 Some people say that the problems were all inherited. No. Things were not good when he took over ABOUT 12 YEARS AGO, but they stabilised. We broke even, lost small amounts or even went into profit for a few years. (Credit is due for the financial management during that period of stability.) We lost ownership of our major assets to keep the club going when he took over, but that's not why we're losing £2.4m a year NOW - an unsustainable amount of money that has little to do with debts at the end of the Jobson era.

4 We apparently need gates of 8k a game to break even. That's rubbish. Firstly, our attendances are higher now than when we used to get 3k-4k a game. Secondly, even 8k a game (which we've not been so far off in the last few years) would come nowhere near covering a £2.4m a year shortfall. More recently, the goalposts seem to have moved again, without people questioning.

5 Ridiculous amounts of money were gambled after promotion to the Championship. That wasn't the manager's fault. The manager should be given a budget each year to spend on players' transfers and wages and to spend that budget as he sees fit. It's the person who released the purse strings to Tilly who was at fault. And I'm sorry if that means Mr PR would have upset many fans demanding "we make signings" at whatever cost. Mr Martin's job was to ensure the financial stability of the club on the not so remote possibility that we went down from the Championship. If relegation cost us financially, it was because of poor future financial planning by the board.

6 Prior/The Echo tried to reveal some of what had been going on in time for some tough questions at the AGM. But Mr PR was able to divert anger towards the people reporting the sorry state of the club with a smokescreen over the fact that they put an extra nought on the end of the figure. So what? Wind taken out of sails as people believed Mr PR against those nasty journalists! Suddenly, it's naughty Echo because they are operated by Col U fans! Classic spin, and it worked. It took the heat out of the AGM. He also made a generous donation to Little Havens - a nice thing to do from Ron personally, and irrespective of whether he intended this it certainly had the effect of calming a lot of people down and winning them over again.

7 Even those difficult questions that were asked at the AGM were cleverly deflected with Mr PR's charm. "I'll see you next year" with a smile, etc. "The HMRC debt will be paid". Err - how? Especially if it's escalated well beyond the initial huge £700k? Unexplained at the time - we were just encouraged to trust him.

8 HMRC tactics are wrong. They're strangling the club. Forcing the club to arrange payment in 1 week instead of 6 weeks. The club has had plenty of time to pay off this money. The fact was, it couldn't. HMRC has been very lenient and waited long enough. And it should have put the club into liquidation. The fact that it didn't and we have administration looming instead is a great result as far as I'm concerned. So I'm grateful to the HMRC for not closing the club down on Wednesday.

9 Whenever there's a bit of disturbance or questions, out pops a "blog" or something similar, and suddenly everyone is on side again, and forget about the real issues or whether he actually delivers. I'm sure another one will come out today in time for the home game, and sure enough some people will be put off protesting.

10 Why has Mr PR been able to get away with singing his own virtues by saying that the club has not been charged for rent whilst at Roots Hall by the company that owns the stadium, whilst also not explaining why the club's finances would be better off at his new stadium? The owner of Fossetts Farm would be entitled to revenue from the casino, etc. Southend United Football Club would not be entitled to that extra money. Instead, the club would be a tenant. Surely that would involve paying rent and even bigger losses than the eye-watering ones now? Why has Mr PR never properly explained how the new stadium would make financial sense FOR THE CLUB and not just for his other companies?

11 Sorry if this sounds populist, but where on earth has the money gone? An extraordinary amount of one-off successes that should have been a bonus over and above what had been budgeted for the year have still not stopped large financial losses. All the extra money from higher gates, success in league and cups, excellent cup draws, TV money, etc should NOT have left us in this position - even if I'm not stupid enough to believe that this money gave us cash to burn.

12 Where's the transparency in the accounts? What has the massive "costs" and "expenses" been spent on? If it really was on new stadium costs etc, why should the football club have picked that up? Surely, the owner of the development (another company, NOT the football club) should have paid for that? Has the money coming out of the football club been solely for the club's interests? If so, where has been the clear explanation for the break down of the "costs" and "expenses" and why they have mushroomed so much compared to before.

13 There have been some incredible sceptics on here a few months ago, asking tough questions. Ron Martin also spoke to them personally, and they seemed to have fallen under his spell. Also the pro-Uncle Ron brigade managed to shout them down until their voices have no longer been heard on here.

What will it take for "Uncle Ron's" magic spell to really be broken for some people? What would he have to do? Even if the club goes into administration or even goes bust, some people will still believe it was nothing to do with Uncle Ron.

If we have a club left at all, I hope someone can come in who doesn't just have silky PR skills but who actually runs the club in the club's best long-term interests.

An excellent post Elstreeblue.

It's fantastic to be able to look back at everything with hindsight and say what should/shouldn't have been done.

The information we are getting now is on an ad hoc basis and is causing panic. People (me included) are analysing every statement and news snippet coming out of RH. Why did Grant sign an extension? Why did McCormack not get sold? We then assume a set of circumstances which brings us to a conclusion and we may, or may not, be correct. Probably not in most cases.

I think we all have to remember an important point and that when Ron Martin took over we actually were in as bad if not a worse position. the trouble was that we had endured years of rubbish and it was just something else... we had smaller gates, lower income, no relative recent successes... the fact we were broke wasn't a surprise.

Roots Hall was sold for an absolute bargain knock down "can't-believe-my-luck" price of about £4m. However, no doubt factored into that was the fact that RM probably knew that there would be no prospect of getting any short term return, plus there was the prospect of having to write off rent.

I didn't notice a queue of people lining up to buy or come up with an alternative at the time. The club was sold from a point of weakness with no bargaining power or viable alternative, so it was "Sell or be shut down".

When a property company owns a club, it's pretty obvious what they're in it for, so personally for me that was no surprise.

What IS a surprise is the unreasonable - totally, totally unreasonable - attitude of fans who want on one hand the club to buy the best players, to compete with wages and provide concessions and benefits for supporters yet who object to the ticket price increases, new shirt launches and any other method of raising money the club embarks on.

It is a fact that there is plenty of money in football but it is also well known that the players wages and the Premiership takes pretty much everything out of the game. There are probably only 5 or 6 profitable clubs in the country so most clubs are either in our sort of position or will be soon - this is just our turn.

We paid a massive price for our season in the CCC. We needed players and we signed the only ones who were willing to join us - Clarke, Foran, Paynter, Harrold... those four alone used up our warchest on the purchase price and drained the lifeblood through the wages.

But at the time of signing, the club were being criticised for not competing, RM was urged to break the wage budget, just sign players... Tilly did what he thought was best and Ron backed him. With hindsight, it killed us - but he wasn't to know that at the time.

However, the stadium plans were passed, everything was progressing and if it had not been for the credit crunch we could have proceeded as planned, monies would have been raised to pay off debts and no one would have been any the wiser.

What on earth was RM meant to do? Highlight every debt that was past it's pay by date? Lay the intimate financial details out for all and sundry to scrutinise? As fans, we don't have the knowledge or ability to actually understand 90% of what goes on. More importantly, as I have said many times before, it's nothing to do with us. We are mere supporters and choose to follow our beloved club through thick and thin. Pre internet, everyone was in the dark on these things. Sadly, it's a little information that does the most damage and unfortunately that's all we have - a little information.

Am I pro Ron?

Well, I think the guy has genuinely done his level best with the resources available to give us all what we yearn for - a successful and stable football club. And if the credit crunch had not happened when it did, we would be halfway there. His alternative would be to let us rot in RH in an old and outdated stadium and milk the rents on a monthly basis. Would we then have bemoaned the fact that he was milking the club an not trying to move the club forward? Of course we would.

I don't believe he has deliberately conned us as we know where he lives and neither do I think he should run the club by committee. Sadly, we are in his hands. He's not at liberty to step down and in any event needs to be bought out before he can do so anyway. The club as a proposition is far more attractive now than it was 10 years ago with a bigger fanbase, more success on the pitch and planning permission for a new stadium. Anyone who buys - well, at least prior to this week - would have had to have coughed up big bucks to prise that from his grasp.

All the anti Ron brigade may well prove to be right. Unfortunately, it won't make an iota of difference as none of us are ever likely to be in a position to learn from whatever mistake was made because we'll never be in the position of owning the club.

Personally, I don't tend to worry about things I can't control or have no influence over. The trust guys are doing a fine job but the sums they are raising now won't touch any debt that needs to be imminently cleared. It's far from an effort wasted, because that money may well need to be used in the future and why not start now?

But in reality teams carry on playing with points deductions, transfer embargoes, relegations, rogue chairmen, betting scandals, injuries, suspensions and any other pitfall or incidents they need to overcome. We are a long, long, LONG way from being the first professional team to go under since Accrington Stanley in the 1950's.

As fans, if we keep supporting and pulling in the same direction rather than criticising Francis for playing another bad ball, castigating McCormack for a square pass too many, abusing the board and generally acting in a divisive manner, we can instill a siege mentality that will make us a stronger unit.

This could - although we can't possibly know it yet - be the event that actually proves to be the making of this club. Now, we really have got something to moan about so all the petty whingeing that has gone on in the past couple of years has been forgotten.

Get behind the team tonight - I'm gutted I can't be there due to work committments - and cheer them onto 3 points.

Blue Army!
 
I'm largely playing Devil's advocate, because I agree with much of what you say, but

1 The club is losing a ridiculous amount of money. The number is worth repeating because some people don't seem to realise how big it is: £2.4m a year. I know when we hear the government talking about £175bn deficits, £2.4m doesn't sound like a lot. But it is unbelievable for a company of Southend United's size. The club didn't use to lose that sort of figure every year. And yet some very intelligent people on here still believe it's just "cash flow". No - cash flow is a problem getting cash, which could be a short-term issue. Losing over £2m a year on a turnover of about 2-3 times that is not something that is sustainable, credit crunch or no credit crunch. If there's a cash flow issue, it's because Mr PR's other companies can't borrow the money from finance institutions to fund the club's massive and unsustainable losses (which they would do with the aim of enabling those other companies to make a big return from the new property development).

The scale of the loss is, as far as I know, attributable to relegation from the championship. I'd expect the loss the next accounting year to be substantially smaller than that, albeit still a loss and even smaller the year after that. £2.4m is however still a huge loss for a company the size of SUFC.

I agree the cash flow issue is because RM's company can't borrow the money from the banks to finance the club's losses.

2 The club being about to go bust or in administration is also somehow not his fault. It's a global recession. So why isn't EVERY OTHER lower league club facing the same problem? Are all comparable clubs losing £2.4m a year?

The clubs we were relegated from the championship were IIRC: Leeds and Luton....

Southampton have also been relegated and had to enter administration. We're not alone. The problem with football is that when clubs do well they break even, when they do badly they lose loads.

3 Some people say that the problems were all inherited. No. Things were not good when he took over ABOUT 12 YEARS AGO, but they stabilised. We broke even, lost small amounts or even went into profit for a few years. (Credit is due for the financial management during that period of stability.) We lost ownership of our major assets to keep the club going when he took over, but that's not why we're losing £2.4m a year NOW - an unsustainable amount of money that has little to do with debts at the end of the Jobson era.

We broke even in good years, occasionally even the odd profit, but we were still in big debt and not in a good financial position even during the relatively stable years. Our financial situation stabilised as bad, but not getting worse. Now it is bad getting worse. The club has basically only been kept alive on (a) money pumped in by RM's company's bankers and (b) the possibility of the new stadium providing a windfall even during those "stable" periods.

Selling our major assets meant that we had to build a new ground and that incurs additional costs (although there are legitimate queries as to who should be incurring those cost - did SUFC incur them to keep them off MD's books, and allow MD to borrow more?).

However the main point is that the situation that he inherited 12 years ago has never gone away.

4 We apparently need gates of 8k a game to break even. That's rubbish. Firstly, our attendances are higher now than when we used to get 3k-4k a game. Secondly, even 8k a game (which we've not been so far off in the last few years) would come nowhere near covering a £2.4m a year shortfall. More recently, the goalposts seem to have moved again, without people questioning.

That figure of 8k a game is a historical one. No doubt our costs have increased in the meantime. Not by £2m, mind you.

5 Ridiculous amounts of money were gambled after promotion to the Championship. That wasn't the manager's fault. The manager should be given a budget each year to spend on players' transfers and wages and to spend that budget as he sees fit. It's the person who released the purse strings to Tilly who was at fault. And I'm sorry if that means Mr PR would have upset many fans demanding "we make signings" at whatever cost. Mr Martin's job was to ensure the financial stability of the club on the not so remote possibility that we went down from the Championship. If relegation cost us financially, it was because of poor future financial planning by the board.

The manager can be considered to be at fault when so many of those signings failed, however I agree the board should never have authorised signings that would have left us in so much difficulty if we were relegated.

6 Prior/The Echo tried to reveal some of what had been going on in time for some tough questions at the AGM. But Mr PR was able to divert anger towards the people reporting the sorry state of the club with a smokescreen over the fact that they put an extra nought on the end of the figure. So what? Wind taken out of sails as people believed Mr PR against those nasty journalists! Suddenly, it's naughty Echo because they are operated by Col U fans! Classic spin, and it worked. It took the heat out of the AGM. He also made a generous donation to Little Havens - a nice thing to do from Ron personally, and irrespective of whether he intended this it certainly had the effect of calming a lot of people down and winning them over again.

7 Even those difficult questions that were asked at the AGM were cleverly deflected with Mr PR's charm. "I'll see you next year" with a smile, etc. "The HMRC debt will be paid". Err - how? Especially if it's escalated well beyond the initial huge £700k? Unexplained at the time - we were just encouraged to trust him.

The club was only able to get away with saying it was solvent by support from its parent (RM's) company and the promise of a windfall if the stadium went ahead.

What are our alternatives?

8 HMRC tactics are wrong. They're strangling the club. Forcing the club to arrange payment in 1 week instead of 6 weeks. The club has had plenty of time to pay off this money. The fact was, it couldn't. HMRC has been very lenient and waited long enough. And it should have put the club into liquidation. The fact that it didn't and we have administration looming instead is a great result as far as I'm concerned. So I'm grateful to the HMRC for not closing the club down on Wednesday.

9 Whenever there's a bit of disturbance or questions, out pops a "blog" or something similar, and suddenly everyone is on side again, and forget about the real issues or whether he actually delivers. I'm sure another one will come out today in time for the home game, and sure enough some people will be put off protesting.

What does protesting against RM actually achieve?

I'm all for questioning him on some of these issues, but I see protesting against him as being totally futile.

The HMRC's actions are destructive and unhelpful, it's just they are justified as well.

10 Why has Mr PR been able to get away with singing his own virtues by saying that the club has not been charged for rent whilst at Roots Hall by the company that owns the stadium, whilst also not explaining why the club's finances would be better off at his new stadium? The owner of Fossetts Farm would be entitled to revenue from the casino, etc. Southend United Football Club would not be entitled to that extra money. Instead, the club would be a tenant. Surely that would involve paying rent and even bigger losses than the eye-watering ones now? Why has Mr PR never properly explained how the new stadium would make financial sense FOR THE CLUB and not just for his other companies?

Agree he's been vague on the details, but independent of how the enabling developments would fund the stadium as has been claimed, there is certainly a case that a new, larger, more modern stadium would benefit the club.

11 Sorry if this sounds populist, but where on earth has the money gone? An extraordinary amount of one-off successes that should have been a bonus over and above what had been budgeted for the year have still not stopped large financial losses. All the extra money from higher gates, success in league and cups, excellent cup draws, TV money, etc should NOT have left us in this position - even if I'm not stupid enough to believe that this money gave us cash to burn.

Agree it should have been saved for a rainy day. I think he got carried away in the success of Steve Tilson and thought it would last forever. However it is clear that a lot of it went on increasing wages. We were paying league two wages in league one, we were until recently probably paying more like championship wages in league one.


12 Where's the transparency in the accounts? What has the massive "costs" and "expenses" been spent on? If it really was on new stadium costs etc, why should the football club have picked that up? Surely, the owner of the development (another company, NOT the football club) should have paid for that? Has the money coming out of the football club been solely for the club's interests? If so, where has been the clear explanation for the break down of the "costs" and "expenses" and why they have mushroomed so much compared to before.

13 There have been some incredible sceptics on here a few months ago, asking tough questions. Ron Martin also spoke to them personally, and they seemed to have fallen under his spell. Also the pro-Uncle Ron brigade managed to shout them down until their voices have no longer been heard on here.

What will it take for "Uncle Ron's" magic spell to really be broken for some people? What would he have to do? Even if the club goes into administration or even goes bust, some people will still believe it was nothing to do with Uncle Ron.

If we have a club left at all, I hope someone can come in who doesn't just have silky PR skills but who actually runs the club in the club's best long-term interests.

I've been resigned to the fact that our club doesn't have a future unless the new stadium manages to not just be built, but becomes profitable, for years now. I therefore don't see Ron Martin as the villain in this, but rather someone helplessly caught in the middle of something far bigger than he is. The new stadium was always a gamble, but I can't see what our alternative is.

But contrary to what most of his critics (up until this post) seem to suggest if SUFC fails, Ron won't walk away a millionaire, it will bring him down. I'm sure he stands to lose more than anyone if this fails. He hasn't been pocketing millions of the club's money and I don't believe he is the devil incarnate, but I suspect he is out of his depth.

So I don't believe his spin and those who think he can do no wrong and I don't believe the spin of those who think he can do no right. The truth as ever is in between.
 
What IS a surprise is the unreasonable - totally, totally unreasonable - attitude of fans who want on one hand the club to buy the best players, to compete with wages and provide concessions and benefits for supporters yet who object to the ticket price increases, new shirt launches and any other method of raising money the club embarks on.

Some very valid points in reply there fbm, but this one bit stands out for me.

At the time, it WASN'T an unreasonable attitude from the fans. We were promised a war chest, players will be signed, etc. Now I know what's been said about this already, so won't go over old ground, but if the supporters are regularly hearing these things then they can't be blamed for perceiving price increases etc as money grabbing.
 
I've been resigned to the fact that our club doesn't have a future unless the new stadium manages to not just be built, but becomes profitable, for years now. I therefore don't see Ron Martin as the villain in this, but rather someone helplessly caught in the middle of something far bigger than he is. The new stadium was always a gamble, but I can't see what our alternative is.

But isn't that one of the points that was raised to start with? We will be there as tennants, not owners. Unless it's written into the agreement that we WILL receive a share of the income streams then if anything it will be worse for us financially than being at Roots Hall. Bigger Stadium equals bigger running costs. It's not going to pay for itself, as it won't be full on a regular basis.


If someone can show me where I've missed that agreement then I'll happily retract this point.
 
I'm largely playing Devil's advocate, because I agree with much of what you say, but



The scale of the loss is, as far as I know, attributable to relegation from the championship. I'd expect the loss the next accounting year to be substantially smaller than that, albeit still a loss and even smaller the year after that. £2.4m is however still a huge loss for a company the size of SUFC.

I agree the cash flow issue is because RM's company can't borrow the money from the banks to finance the club's losses.



The clubs we were relegated from the championship were IIRC: Leeds and Luton....

Southampton have also been relegated and had to enter administration. We're not alone. The problem with football is that when clubs do well they break even, when they do badly they lose loads.



We broke even in good years, occasionally even the odd profit, but we were still in big debt and not in a good financial position even during the relatively stable years. Our financial situation stabilised as bad, but not getting worse. Now it is bad getting worse. The club has basically only been kept alive on (a) money pumped in by RM's company's bankers and (b) the possibility of the new stadium providing a windfall even during those "stable" periods.

Selling our major assets meant that we had to build a new ground and that incurs additional costs (although there are legitimate queries as to who should be incurring those cost - did SUFC incur them to keep them off MD's books, and allow MD to borrow more?).

However the main point is that the situation that he inherited 12 years ago has never gone away.



That figure of 8k a game is a historical one. No doubt our costs have increased in the meantime. Not by £2m, mind you.



The manager can be considered to be at fault when so many of those signings failed, however I agree the board should never have authorised signings that would have left us in so much difficulty if we were relegated.



The club was only able to get away with saying it was solvent by support from its parent (RM's) company and the promise of a windfall if the stadium went ahead.

What are our alternatives?



What does protesting against RM actually achieve?

I'm all for questioning him on some of these issues, but I see protesting against him as being totally futile.

The HMRC's actions are destructive and unhelpful, it's just they are justified as well.



Agree he's been vague on the details, but independent of how the enabling developments would fund the stadium as has been claimed, there is certainly a case that a new, larger, more modern stadium would benefit the club.



Agree it should have been saved for a rainy day. I think he got carried away in the success of Steve Tilson and thought it would last forever. However it is clear that a lot of it went on increasing wages. We were paying league two wages in league one, we were until recently probably paying more like championship wages in league one.




I've been resigned to the fact that our club doesn't have a future unless the new stadium manages to not just be built, but becomes profitable, for years now. I therefore don't see Ron Martin as the villain in this, but rather someone helplessly caught in the middle of something far bigger than he is. The new stadium was always a gamble, but I can't see what our alternative is.

But contrary to what most of his critics (up until this post) seem to suggest if SUFC fails, Ron won't walk away a millionaire, it will bring him down. I'm sure he stands to lose more than anyone if this fails. He hasn't been pocketing millions of the club's money and I don't believe he is the devil incarnate, but I suspect he is out of his depth.

So I don't believe his spin and those who think he can do no wrong and I don't believe the spin of those who think he can do no right. The truth as ever is in between.

Exactly - which is why I've got more hope perhaps than most that it will be sorted.

Would rep you if I could mate - brilliant post.
 
But isn't that one of the points that was raised to start with? We will be there as tennants, not owners. Unless it's written into the agreement that we WILL receive a share of the income streams then if anything it will be worse for us financially than being at Roots Hall. Bigger Stadium equals bigger running costs. It's not going to pay for itself, as it won't be full on a regular basis.


If someone can show me where I've missed that agreement then I'll happily retract this point.

Not necessarily. A more modern stadium should introduce more efficiencies, better corporate hospitality facilities etc plus the potential to grow bigger.

The exact relationship between the club as tenants and the new revenue streams from the surrounding developments has always been murky. I don't think this had ever been finalised, but then neither had the finance necessary to build it all, so that is hardly surprising.
 
Not necessarily. A more modern stadium should introduce more efficiencies, better corporate hospitality facilities etc plus the potential to grow bigger.

The exact relationship between the club as tenants and the new revenue streams from the surrounding developments has always been murky. I don't think this had ever been finalised, but then neither had the finance necessary to build it all, so that is hardly surprising.

And therein lies the point. Your first point is about what can happen - it won't happen from day one, so the stadium will cost us more that Roots Hall does until this is established. The second point is what I was getting at - if none of this has been finalised etc then how can we be certain that it's going to make us money? If we can't be certain then we can't say that moving to FF is the way to assure our long term survival.
 
Some very valid points in reply there fbm, but this one bit stands out for me.

At the time, it WASN'T an unreasonable attitude from the fans. We were promised a war chest, players will be signed, etc. Now I know what's been said about this already, so won't go over old ground, but if the supporters are regularly hearing these things then they can't be blamed for perceiving price increases etc as money grabbing.

People should also realise that after he said it recession bit and hit the property industry....
 
And therein lies the point. Your first point is about what can happen - it won't happen from day one, so the stadium will cost us more that Roots Hall does until this is established. The second point is what I was getting at - if none of this has been finalised etc then how can we be certain that it's going to make us money? If we can't be certain then we can't say that moving to FF is the way to assure our long term survival.

The alternative is to stay at Roots Hall, which doesnt either.

So do we take a chance at developing and moving forward or stay, stagnate and be riddled with losses indefinitely?
 
I here and now confess I am one of those terrible people who are responsible for the situation the club is in. I have - up until this week - been prepared to take Ron Martin at his word.
If only I had listened to his critics and acted on the advice they were putting forward, Southend would, like every other football club in the land, be in a healthy financial state. Though for some strange reason I now cannot remember any of the advice they gave that would have prevented the current situation
But I wouldn't listen to them, and even worse, I shouted them down to the point where not a single critical thing has been said about Ron Martin on here for months now.
In mitigation I can only claim I was confused by their regular demands that money be thrown around in the transfer market even though same people alone knew the true parlous financial postion of the club.
I am the scapegoat you are seeking. My revolver is loaded and I am off to do the decent thing.
Farewell, ShrimperZone. Farewell Wise Ones. If I only I had listened.
 
Though for some strange reason I now cannot remember any of the advice they gave that would have prevented the current situation


You know, stay at Roots Hall where we cant ever grow financially or make money outside of Home matches, buy more players constantly, be in the top 4 chasing promotion every season.

So earn less and spend more.

Sorted.
 
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