You've got to hand it to him

[ElstreeBlue]

I've never met the man, so haven't seen his skills first hand, but you've got to hand it to him. Ron Martin must have incredibly slick PR skills. He seems to be like teflon. Whenever there is something bad to face, either someone else is put forward to take the flak or he somehow wins people over.

I'm not looking for a witch hunt but I'm appalled at what's happened to our club. And I don't think we know the half of it yet. But I'm equally surprised to see several intelligent posters on here who I respect even now still not laying the blame where it is due. The club has been financially mismanaged in an appalling way such that the club's on its knees and yet some people still want to believe that Ron Martin is the man to sort it out or it's someone else's fault.

I mentioned a couple of weeks ago that in my opinion the Jobson and Martin eras bear remarkable similarities - they took over the club when it was in a bad state, created some financial stability for a while, before things going really downhill at the end of their reigns, leaving the club in a very bad position. The one big difference is their PR skills. Just before Vic Jobson left, I don't think a single person wanted him to remain. Those who knew that he had done a lot of good for the club originally believed his continued presence was ruining the club. And he didn't do much to endear himself so he didn't have many friends in the end.

Ron Martin came in and initially saved the club when we needed someone to take over, but instead of buying the stadium and training ground to clear the debts so that the club could go forward, the debts have spiralled and we are now left with massive debts and few assets. Plus bigger losses than ever before. He has taken the club to depths that we didn't even see under Jobson and yet, despite all this, there are plenty of people who STILL believe that he is going to sort it out or that this is somehow not his fault. I'm amazed that anyone can still think that. What will it take? Why does he have this power to convince, even now? It's an incredible skill.

1 The club is losing a ridiculous amount of money. The number is worth repeating because some people don't seem to realise how big it is: £2.4m a year. I know when we hear the government talking about £175bn deficits, £2.4m doesn't sound like a lot. But it is unbelievable for a company of Southend United's size. The club didn't use to lose that sort of figure every year. And yet some very intelligent people on here still believe it's just "cash flow". No - cash flow is a problem getting cash, which could be a short-term issue. Losing over £2m a year on a turnover of about 2-3 times that is not something that is sustainable, credit crunch or no credit crunch. If there's a cash flow issue, it's because Mr PR's other companies can't borrow the money from finance institutions to fund the club's massive and unsustainable losses (which they would do with the aim of enabling those other companies to make a big return from the new property development).

2 The club being about to go bust or in administration is also somehow not his fault. It's a global recession. So why isn't EVERY OTHER lower league club facing the same problem? Are all comparable clubs losing £2.4m a year?

3 Some people say that the problems were all inherited. No. Things were not good when he took over ABOUT 12 YEARS AGO, but they stabilised. We broke even, lost small amounts or even went into profit for a few years. (Credit is due for the financial management during that period of stability.) We lost ownership of our major assets to keep the club going when he took over, but that's not why we're losing £2.4m a year NOW - an unsustainable amount of money that has little to do with debts at the end of the Jobson era.

4 We apparently need gates of 8k a game to break even. That's rubbish. Firstly, our attendances are higher now than when we used to get 3k-4k a game. Secondly, even 8k a game (which we've not been so far off in the last few years) would come nowhere near covering a £2.4m a year shortfall. More recently, the goalposts seem to have moved again, without people questioning.

5 Ridiculous amounts of money were gambled after promotion to the Championship. That wasn't the manager's fault. The manager should be given a budget each year to spend on players' transfers and wages and to spend that budget as he sees fit. It's the person who released the purse strings to Tilly who was at fault. And I'm sorry if that means Mr PR would have upset many fans demanding "we make signings" at whatever cost. Mr Martin's job was to ensure the financial stability of the club on the not so remote possibility that we went down from the Championship. If relegation cost us financially, it was because of poor future financial planning by the board.

6 Prior/The Echo tried to reveal some of what had been going on in time for some tough questions at the AGM. But Mr PR was able to divert anger towards the people reporting the sorry state of the club with a smokescreen over the fact that they put an extra nought on the end of the figure. So what? Wind taken out of sails as people believed Mr PR against those nasty journalists! Suddenly, it's naughty Echo because they are operated by Col U fans! Classic spin, and it worked. It took the heat out of the AGM. He also made a generous donation to Little Havens - a nice thing to do from Ron personally, and irrespective of whether he intended this it certainly had the effect of calming a lot of people down and winning them over again.

7 Even those difficult questions that were asked at the AGM were cleverly deflected with Mr PR's charm. "I'll see you next year" with a smile, etc. "The HMRC debt will be paid". Err - how? Especially if it's escalated well beyond the initial huge £700k? Unexplained at the time - we were just encouraged to trust him.

8 HMRC tactics are wrong. They're strangling the club. Forcing the club to arrange payment in 1 week instead of 6 weeks. The club has had plenty of time to pay off this money. The fact was, it couldn't. HMRC has been very lenient and waited long enough. And it should have put the club into liquidation. The fact that it didn't and we have administration looming instead is a great result as far as I'm concerned. So I'm grateful to the HMRC for not closing the club down on Wednesday.

9 Whenever there's a bit of disturbance or questions, out pops a "blog" or something similar, and suddenly everyone is on side again, and forget about the real issues or whether he actually delivers. I'm sure another one will come out today in time for the home game, and sure enough some people will be put off protesting.

10 Why has Mr PR been able to get away with singing his own virtues by saying that the club has not been charged for rent whilst at Roots Hall by the company that owns the stadium, whilst also not explaining why the club's finances would be better off at his new stadium? The owner of Fossetts Farm would be entitled to revenue from the casino, etc. Southend United Football Club would not be entitled to that extra money. Instead, the club would be a tenant. Surely that would involve paying rent and even bigger losses than the eye-watering ones now? Why has Mr PR never properly explained how the new stadium would make financial sense FOR THE CLUB and not just for his other companies?

11 Sorry if this sounds populist, but where on earth has the money gone? An extraordinary amount of one-off successes that should have been a bonus over and above what had been budgeted for the year have still not stopped large financial losses. All the extra money from higher gates, success in league and cups, excellent cup draws, TV money, etc should NOT have left us in this position - even if I'm not stupid enough to believe that this money gave us cash to burn.

12 Where's the transparency in the accounts? What has the massive "costs" and "expenses" been spent on? If it really was on new stadium costs etc, why should the football club have picked that up? Surely, the owner of the development (another company, NOT the football club) should have paid for that? Has the money coming out of the football club been solely for the club's interests? If so, where has been the clear explanation for the break down of the "costs" and "expenses" and why they have mushroomed so much compared to before.

13 There have been some incredible sceptics on here a few months ago, asking tough questions. Ron Martin also spoke to them personally, and they seemed to have fallen under his spell. Also the pro-Uncle Ron brigade managed to shout them down until their voices have no longer been heard on here.

What will it take for "Uncle Ron's" magic spell to really be broken for some people? What would he have to do? Even if the club goes into administration or even goes bust, some people will still believe it was nothing to do with Uncle Ron.

If we have a club left at all, I hope someone can come in who doesn't just have silky PR skills but who actually runs the club in the club's best long-term interests.

 

[BrettieAngell]

As a club we have to stretch beyond our means to compete at a higher level, it backfired this time because we came straight back down.

 

[Beefy]

I think the main thing is that there is a distinct lack of genuine alternatives. Make no mistake, any problems we have now pale into insignificance compared to what will happen if Ron Martin walks away. At least when Vic left we still had some assets to sell.

I don't see any alternative than to back the Club and give Ron the chance to get this issue sorted. The fact that he's not backing the Trust's fundraising and isn't passing begging bowls out trying to raise the cash tells me that he must have one final play and all thinf considered I think we need to give him the chance to make it.

 

[Somerset Ex-TTB]

Best post on here for days.

 

[Boreham Shrimper]

A very well reasoned post. I don't agree with all of it and was one of the cautious Ron loyalists. Sadly, the events of the last few days have changed my mind and have cast a great degree of doubt over the accuracy of some of his previous statements.

Talking of statements, we're still waiting Ron...

 

[ElstreeBlue]

I think the main thing is that there is a distinct lack of genuine alternatives. Make no mistake, any problems we have now pale into insignificance compared to what will happen if Ron Martin walks away. At least when Vic left we still had some assets to sell.

I don't see any alternative than to back the Club and give Ron the chance to get this issue sorted. The fact that he's not backing the Trust's fundraising and isn't passing begging bowls out trying to raise the cash tells me that he must have one final play and all thinf considered I think we need to give him the chance to make it.

I agree - and who owns those assets now? It would make it even more unappealing for someone to come in and rescue the club than previously. Unless someone steps forward, I don't see the alternative. However, if someone does come forward, I believe they should be given our full support because things couldn't be much worse than they are now, and "Uncle Ron" has had more than enough chances as far as I'm concerned.

Beefy - You've given a very generous take on why Ron hasn't backed the Trust's fundraising efforts. I think it's disgusting that they say he hasn't kept them informed. He should at least have gone for a twin-track approach of him trying to get the money sorted while at the same time encouraging the Trust, Stan Collymore et al to raise the issue and funds for months (after all, what harm could it have done to raise money?). Talk about all eggs in one basket when HMRC could have closed the club down on Wednesday. Where's the back-up plan if he really doesn't come good with £700k within the extra 5 working days that the club has been given? What would you say then if the money's not been paid and he hasn't done as much as possible to encourage the Trust?

 

[Jam_Man]

As far as I can see it the main difference between Ron Martin and Jobson is that the financial problems are a result of trying to improve the clubs financial status with a new stadium.

We are losing money every year, as many clubs do, so a new stadium was the solution to that.

The reason we are in this position and not all other clubs are is that we took a bold step to improve it and they arent. They will continue to lose money as will we if we stay at Roots Hall.

Its been a big gamble and right now isnt working out but Id rather we tried to grow and overcome these hurdles than sit here and die a slow death....

 

[Jam_Man]

I agree - and who owns those assets now? It would make it even more unappealing for someone to come in and rescue the club than previously. Unless someone steps forward, I don't see the alternative. However, if someone does come forward, I believe they should be given our full support because things couldn't be much worse than they are now, and "Uncle Ron" has had more than enough chances as far as I'm concerned.

Beefy - You've given a very generous take on why Ron hasn't backed the Trust's fundraising efforts. I think it's disgusting that they say he hasn't kept them informed. He should at least have gone for a twin-track approach of him trying to get the money sorted while at the same time encouraging the Trust, Stan Collymore et al to raise the issue and funds for months (after all, what harm could it have done to raise money?). Talk about all eggs in one basket when HMRC could have closed the club down on Wednesday. Where's the back-up plan if he really doesn't come good with £700k within the extra 5 working days that the club has been given? What would you say then if the money's not been paid and he hasn't done as much as possible to encourage the Trust?

Take it from the opposite angle.

Lets say Ron Martin was waiting for the Sainsburys money and had said we are skint lets fundraise out of fans pockets and the money had arrived in time.

He would be vilified for stealing fans money!

He thought he could pay the bill and got caught out, Im not sure doing it any other way would have been a better option, other than having the money to actually pay it in the first place.

 

[McNasty]

The over-whelming desire to see SUFC succeed is the reason many fans have held blinkered views, along with the drip-fed "it'll be all right on the night" information released by the Chairman.

I was very sceptical as soon as I heard a property development company were getting involved with the football club. I, amongst many others, was worried about the implications of someone coming along purely for the land at Roots Hall. The promise of a new stadium, along with the most successful period on the field has lulled a lot of people , myself included, into a false sense of security.

I think RM has the best of intentions, a big development including a stadium to satisfy both the club's fans and his own personal bank account, and bearing in mind the risks involved, no-one would deny his efforts in the face of adversity. However I think he has shown incredible naivety in keep up this show of "it's all under control" when it appears it wasn't. I can appreciate the ideals of the chairman going it alone to maximise his personal profit but surely it would have been better to take on-board someone else to share the load of financing the whole venture in exchange for some of the potential profit.

Where do we go from here ? Any suggestions ?

 

[ElstreeBlue]

As far as I can see it the main difference between Ron Martin and Jobson is that the financial problems are a result of trying to improve the clubs financial status with a new stadium.

We are losing money every year, as many clubs do, so a new stadium was the solution to that.

The reason we are in this position and not all other clubs are is that we took a bold step to improve it and they arent. They will continue to lose money as will we if we stay at Roots Hall.

Its been a big gamble and right now isnt working out but Id rather we tried to grow and overcome these hurdles than sit here and die a slow death....

I'm all for the new stadium. In fact, Vic Jobson was before many fans were. However, that never came to fruition for him.

Ron Martin's plan is for the stadium to make the stadium operating company lots of money. I don't begrudge him that as a return on his investment in investing in the club. But please explain how the football club benefits financially from the new stadium as a separate legal entity from the owner of the stadium complex? Ron Martin hasn't properly explained that.

Please also explain how the new stadium would be in the club's financial interests if the club is a mere tenant and has to pay rent, on top of the £2.4m a year that it's currently losing?

 

[Jam_Man]

However I think he has shown incredible naivety in keep up this show of "it's all under control" when it appears it wasn't.

Yes I agree, if you look at the HMRC stories on the official site he is playing the problem down as far back as July.

I dont think its unfair to criticise his handling of it as it does look like he has gambled on other money coming in and doesnt sound like a particularly safe way to do business.

 

[Boreham Shrimper]

The over-whelming desire to see SUFC succeed is the reason many fans have held blinkered views, along with the drip-fed "it'll be all right on the night" information released by the Chairman.

I was very sceptical as soon as I heard a property development company were getting involved with the football club. I, amongst many others, was worried about the implications of someone coming along purely for the land at Roots Hall. The promise of a new stadium, along with the most successful period on the field has lulled a lot of people , myself included, into a false sense of security.

I think RM has the best of intentions, a big development including a stadium to satisfy both the club's fans and his own personal bank account, and bearing in mind the risks involved, no-one would deny his efforts in the face of adversity. However I think he has shown incredible naivety in keep up this show of "it's all under control" when it appears it wasn't. I can appreciate the ideals of the chairman going it alone to maximise his personal profit but surely it would have been better to take on-board someone else to share the load of financing the whole venture in exchange for some of the potential profit.

Where do we go from here ? Any suggestions ?

League 2? :(

I think you've got it spot on. Ron is not hugely personally wealthy and nobody can blame him for that. What he can be criticised for is being overly ambitious and trying to go it alone without getting someone else on board. That may well have meant that it was no longer commercially viable for him but going it alone seems to have been a massive gamble with the best of intentions that just has not paid off. Yes, economic circumstance has greatly damaged his prospects but we have been haemorrhaging money for years now and his plan was always going to be precarious for the football club if there were any delays to the project.

 

[ElstreeBlue]

Take it from the opposite angle.

Lets say Ron Martin was waiting for the Sainsburys money and had said we are skint lets fundraise out of fans pockets and the money had arrived in time.

He would be vilified for stealing fans money!

He thought he could pay the bill and got caught out, Im not sure doing it any other way would have been a better option, other than having the money to actually pay it in the first place.

He wouldn't be stealing from the fans. I'm suggesting a twin-track approach. Keep Paul Fitzgerald in the loop, explain the sensitivities, and encourage the Trust to collect for a rainy day. Then the money is not needed if and when the Sainsbury's deal is done. The money could then be used to buy a player - I think we need 1 or 2 of those right now!

But as soon as the Sainsbury's deal was clearly not going to be done in time, what's happened since? Why has there been no encouragement for the Trust to collect money?

 

[wynyates]

I think EB has got it about right but, unfortunately, RM still does control our club's future and will continue to do so.

I also find it distasteful the way RM issued new shares when he knew the woeful position of the finances. I suspect many loyal people took him at his word and lost money they could ill afford to.

 

[THE SEVENTIES NORTH BANK]

The over-whelming desire to see SUFC succeed is the reason many fans have held blinkered views, along with the drip-fed "it'll be all right on the night" information released by the Chairman.

I was very sceptical as soon as I heard a property development company were getting involved with the football club. I, amongst many others, was worried about the implications of someone coming along purely for the land at Roots Hall. The promise of a new stadium, along with the most successful period on the field has lulled a lot of people , myself included, into a false sense of security.

I think RM has the best of intentions, a big development including a stadium to satisfy both the club's fans and his own personal bank account, and bearing in mind the risks involved, no-one would deny his efforts in the face of adversity. However I think he has shown incredible naivety in keep up this show of "it's all under control" when it appears it wasn't. I can appreciate the ideals of the chairman going it alone to maximise his personal profit but surely it would have been better to take on-board someone else to share the load of financing the whole venture in exchange for some of the potential profit.

Where do we go from here ? Any suggestions ?

My best man at my wedding, Robbie the swag man (you know him mcnasty), tried to explain to me that the real goldmine was the land at fossetts, as it was greenbelt and is now O.K. for development because of the stadium plan.
So it was obtained for a fraction of what it is worth.

 

[hindle_666]

League 2? :(

I think you've got it spot on. Ron is not hugely personally wealthy and nobody can blame him for that. What he can be criticised for is being overly ambitious and trying to go it alone without getting someone else on board. That may well have meant that it was no longer commercially viable for him but going it alone seems to have been a massive gamble with the best of intentions that just has not paid off. Yes, economic circumstance has greatly damaged his prospects but we have been haemorrhaging money for years now and his plan was always going to be precarious for the football club if there were any delays to the project.

right now id bite your hand off....

 

[Beefy]

He wouldn't be stealing from the fans. I'm suggesting a twin-track approach. Keep Paul Fitzgerald in the loop, explain the sensitivities, and encourage the Trust to collect for a rainy day. Then the money is not needed if and when the Sainsbury's deal is done. The money could then be used to buy a player - I think we need 1 or 2 of those right now!

But as soon as the Sainsbury's deal was clearly not going to be done in time, what's happened since? Why has there been no encouragement for the Trust to collect money?

Because he thought that he'd be able to get a further deferral prior to the Winding Up petition being heard. Its worth remembering that the Administration threat has come from HMRC and not from the Club. If it had been Voluntary Administration and the Club was still not fund-raising then I can see where the criticism would be but he's always said that this will be resolved and I think he needs to be given the chance to come through with that.

It's great that our fanbase are being pro-active in their fundraising and we may very well need this fighting fund one day, but until next week we won't know what position we're going to be in and therefore I think some of the scaremongering we've seen recently may be premature. Let's wait and see.

 

[Beefy]

Not that I'm saying you're scaremongering, by the way. It's more things like Chris Phillips going on SSN saying that Barrett, Barnard, Francis, McCormack and Moussa are going to be sold by the Administrators which does more harm than it does good.

 

[Jam_Man]

He wouldn't be stealing from the fans. I'm suggesting a twin-track approach. Keep Paul Fitzgerald in the loop, explain the sensitivities, and encourage the Trust to collect for a rainy day. Then the money is not needed if and when the Sainsbury's deal is done. The money could then be used to buy a player - I think we need 1 or 2 of those right now!

But as soon as the Sainsbury's deal was clearly not going to be done in time, what's happened since? Why has there been no encouragement for the Trust to collect money?

Seriously, if he had said "we need money", people had chucked a tenner in a bucket and then he said "oh no its fine, money arrived" you think people would have been ok with that ?

OF course not.

He took a risk in trying to delay the tax man, one which ultimately may cost us and prove to be wrong. Asking fans to collect would not have been a better option, if anything he should have been looking for real investment, not charity from supporters.

As he said he didnt want supporters to collect Im still of the opinion he has the money in the pipeline even if its not available in time.

 

[Suffolk Shrimper In Dorset]

I supect my words here could be the most inept post on this or any of the other threads, but..........

I JUST DON'T KNOW WHAT TO THINK

What Elstree says makes a lot of sense, and if nothing else, after the events of the last few days I now have a 99% mis-trust in what Uncle Ron says.

I have read countless threads on it all, much of it all going in different directions, but still well-reasoned.

However, in the absence of seemingly little other current option at present I will back RM at present. If he pulls the plug then all the huffing and puffing and coins in buckets will not get us very far, the pit created too big to fill unless there is a shining knight out there.

I have never had much faith in any of the folk behind the scenes at SUFC over the past 40 years, now is no different.

But if RM turns up on the pitch tonight mic in hand I will listen, and hope. And hope some more. And then with all of you raise the roof for what I reckon will be one of the most emotional nights ever at the Hall.

UTB