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Joined
Aug 11, 2008
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Rusty,
I'm sure you're a charming chap really and we could enjoy a good chat about SUFC over a beer or two.
I don't think it would be a good idea to discuss Politics though.:)

I am a charming chap, but I find your blind adherence to the crap you read in the Guardian (and watch on Al Jazeera) thoroughly nauseating. So much so, that I very much doubt I'd enjoy 'a beer or two' with you, even if you were buying. We're not debating politics, because politics entails a degree of compromise, something that your Arabic friends refuse to contemplate. You're in favour of supporting a backward, murderous ideology that thinks nothing of maiming and slaughtering the innocent and I'm not. That isn't really a debate.
 

Slipperduke

The Camden Cad
Joined
Aug 24, 2004
Messages
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Location
North London
I am a charming chap, but I find your blind adherence to the crap you read in the Guardian (and watch on Al Jazeera) thoroughly nauseating. So much so, that I very much doubt I'd enjoy 'a beer or two' with you, even if you were buying. We're not debating politics, because politics entails a degree of compromise, something that your Arabic friends refuse to contemplate. You're in favour of supporting a backward, murderous ideology that thinks nothing of maiming and slaughtering the innocent and I'm not. That isn't really a debate.

Now, I know a lot of people on here don't agree with Rusty's views, but you have to admit that he has style.
 

steveo

mine to stay the same please
Joined
Aug 30, 2005
Messages
7,545
Now, I know a lot of people on here don't agree with Rusty's views, but you have to admit that he has style.

And is also a charming chap.

Luckily, despite Blairs shortcomings, I see the good old British Government is chipping in with £50 million to help stop youngsters become extremists.

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/middle-east/britain-to-send-16350m-to-palestine-1851467.html

Did you see the Ross Kemp proggy and all those youngsters throwing stuff across the wall? Well rather than spend 50 mill trying to educate them, a few well placed bullets might have deterred them bit quicker.
 

londonblue

Topgun Pilot
Joined
Feb 18, 2004
Messages
17,324
You make a valid point here, though the rest of the article is still well worth reading.
However, I'd imagine you'd probably agree that a reduction in rocket attacks from 179 a day to just three did represent significant progress(if not a complete ceasefire)?

I'd say it was a start, but after years and years of rocket attacks I can also see that the Israelis would be very fed up and not really in the mood to wait and see if all rockets would cease.

IIRC Hamas claimed at the time that rogue elements outside their control were responsible for the (relatively few)continuing attacks.

If you believe that you are very naiive. Anything else outside of their control is met with force. So how come rocket attacks weren't/aren't?

There's no doubt(in my mind at least)that Israel had its own agenda and was not interested in a ceasefire or a negociated settlement before they had bombed the West Bank back into the "mud age."

And there's no doubt in my mind that you're wrong, plain and simple. The West Bank is fatah controlled...
 

Tangled up in Blue

Certified Senior Citizen⭐
Joined
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We're not debating politics, because politics entails a degree of compromise, something that your Arabic friends refuse to contemplate. You're in favour of supporting a backward, murderous ideology that thinks nothing of maiming and slaughtering the innocent and I'm not. That isn't really a debate.

As Rab Butler used to say(and it was also the title of his autobiography):-"Politics is the art of the possible."
Also as Winston Churchill said:-"Jaw,jaw is better than war,war."
That is the sort of ideology that I am in favour of supporting.
Until Israel is prepared to recognise,then sit down and negociate with Hamas, who are(whether you or Israel like it or not)the democratically elected representatives of the Palestinian people, then there is no chance whatsoever of progress or reconcilation.
BTW the sort of model of reconcilation I am hoping for here is brillantly described in John Carlin's "Playing the Enemy", (recently filmed as Invictus),which outlines Mandela's successfull struggle to achieve an accomodation with Botha/De Klerk's racist South African state, in order to mastermind South Africa's eventual peaceful transfer of power from white rule to majority rule ,from apartheid to democracy.
Mandela was of course labelled a terrorist by none other than Maggie Thatcher back in the day.:soapbox:
 
Joined
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Until Israel is prepared to recognise,then sit down and negociate with Hamas, who are(whether you or Israel like it or not)the democratically elected representatives of the Palestinian people, then there is no chance whatsoever of progress or reconcilation.

That cuts both ways as Hamas must also recognise that the state of Israel has a right to exist, and by the same token defend itself. While doing so stop firing rockets out of the densely populated areas of Gaza and deliberately using the people there as cannon fodder.

I agree with Slipper's earlier post about locking both sides into a room and periodically letting off grenades until they come to their senses and make a truce amenable to both sides.
 

londonblue

Topgun Pilot
Joined
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Messages
17,324
If it was down to me, I'd bang both their heads together. I'd plant 100 bombs in the Jewish quarter, 100 in the Arab quarter, put everyone of influence in a room and lock the door.

Slipper,
You're quite right in saying that both sides need to talk.Not sure about the bombs idea though.:unsure:
Unfortunately Israel has so far refused to recognise Hamas as the democratically elected voice of the Palestinian people.
Just as we sat down and negociated with Sinn Fein and Botha first talked with Mandella for De Klerk to later recognise the ANC so Israel will eventually have to do the same with Hamas.

Correct me if i'm wrong but wasn't Mandela in prison for about 25 years, and released for about 10 before any talks took place? Didn't the IRA declare (and keep to) a ceasefire before any talks took place?

And you're still advocating that Israel talks to an organisation that only controls half the Palestinian lands (by fear) and even then only for about 5-odd years? In that time there hasn't been any ceasefire, and it is still part of the Hamas constitution to wipe Israel from the face of the earth? Even Fatah don't talk to Hamas, so why should Israel?

Even at the height of the troubles the IRA never had a goal of ridding the world of England. There simply is no comparison, and to try and make one shows a lack of understanding.

Even at the height of the troubles the ANC never wanted to rid South Africa of whites. There simply is no comparison, and to try and make one shows a lack of understanding.


IMO posterity will also judge that Israel missed an historic opportunity to reach agreement with Yassar Arrafat's moderate PLO.
Moderate that is in comparison with Hamas.

I think you mean less extreme Fatah (the name of the PLO). However, you also seem to be re-writing history here. Everyone agreed, it was Arafat that reneged on the deal. Even the rest of the Arab world were annoyed with him.

Here's some quotes from your "moderate" Yassir Arafat:

Peace for us means the destruction of Israel. We are preparing for an all-out war, a war which will last for generations.

The victory march will continue until the Palestinian flag flies in Jerusalem and in all of Palestine.

We plan to eliminate the state of Israel and establish a purely Palestinian state. We will make life unbearable for Jews by psychological warfare and population explosion. We Palestinians will take over everything, including all of Jerusalem.
 
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Joined
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Correct me if i'm wrong but wasn't Mandela in prison for about 25 years, and released for about 10 before any talks took place? Didn't the IRA declare (and keep to) a ceasefire before any talks took place?

And you're still advocating that Israel talks to an organisation that only controls half the Palestinian lands (by fear) and even then only for about 5-odd years? In that time there hasn't been any ceasefire, and it is still part of the Hamas constitution to wipe Israel from the face of the earth? Even Fatah don't talk to Hamas, so why should Israel?

Even at the height of the troubles the IRA never had a goal of ridding the world of England. There simply is no comparison, and to try and make one shows a lack of understanding.

Even at the height of the troubles the ANC never wanted to rid South Africa of whites. There simply is no comparison, and to try and make one shows a lack of understanding.

I think Mandela was in prison from the early 60's until his release in 1990. Pretty much straight away de Klerk entered into dialogue with the ANC, and as a side issue there was an immediate readmittance of South African teams in sport from late 1991.

Good points about both the ANC & IRA, as part of the avowed aim of Hamas and its various offshoots is the complete annihilation of Israel.
 

Tangled up in Blue

Certified Senior Citizen⭐
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londonblue;1101637[B said:
Even at the height of the troubles the ANC never wanted to rid South Africa of whites. [/B]There simply is no comparison, and to try and make one shows a lack of understanding.


Actually, some of them did.:)
Read John Carlin's "Playing the Enemy" or Mandela's autobiography:- "Long walk to freedom".
 
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londonblue

Topgun Pilot
Joined
Feb 18, 2004
Messages
17,324
Actually, some of them did.:)
Read John Carlin's "Playing the Enemy" or Mandela's autobiography:- "Long walk to freedom".

And whilst we're at it, here's some quotes from the Hamas Principles:
"Israel will exist and will continue to exist until Islam will obliterate it, just as it obliterated others before it." (The Martyr, Imam Hassan al-Banna, of blessed memory).
"The Islamic Resistance Movement believes that the land of Palestine is an Islamic Waqf consecrated for future Muslim generations until Judgement Day. It, or any part of it, should not be squandered: it, or any part of it, should not be given up. "
"There is no solution for the Palestinian question except through Jihad. Initiatives, proposals and international conferences are all a waste of time and vain endeavors."

And you still believe there is value in talking to these people?
 
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londonblue

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Joined
Feb 18, 2004
Messages
17,324
Yes I do.There will be no solution to the problem until Israel (like the South African Goverment)take that on board.

The fact that you're still banging on about that without answering these points implies to me you don't really have an answer:

Even at the height of the troubles the ANC never wanted to rid South Africa of whites. There simply is no comparison, and to try and make one shows a lack of understanding.

Even Fatah don't talk to Hamas, so why should Israel?

Regardless of that, I can imagine the conversation going something like this:

Israeli: Hello, we’re here to talk.
Hamas: Who said that? Is there a mouse in here?
Israeli: No, no, it’s us, your neighbours. We’ve come to talk about peace.
Hamas: I must be losing my mind. Where the **** is that noise coming from?
 

Tangled up in Blue

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The fact that you're still banging on about that without answering these points implies to me you don't really have an answer:

This is getting to be a rather tiresome,circular argument.:headbang:
I've already answered the point about the ANC.There were elements in the ANC who would have been happy to drive the whites into the sea before Mandela began his charm offensive on them.
I suggested you look at John Carlin's Playing the Enemy or Mandela's own Long Walk to Freedom for confirmation of this.Do so and you'll find I'm right.
As to the point about Fatah and Hamas.Hamas are the majority, elected representatives of the Palestinian people in Gaza.It is they who Israel will have to negociate with if they want a settlement.I've already said this too.:)
 
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Joined
Aug 11, 2008
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This is getting to be a rather tiresome,circular argument.:headbang:
I've already answered the point about the ANC.There were elements in the ANC who would have been happy to drive the whites into the sea before Mandela began his charm offensive on them.
I suggested you look at John Carlin's Playing the Enemy or Mandela's own Long Walk to Freedom for confirmation of this.Do so and you'll find I'm right.
As to the point about Fatah and Hamas.Hamas are the majority, elected representatives of the Palestinian people in Gaza.It is they who Israel will have to negociate with if they want a settlement.

I only think you're finding this tiresome because your adversary is absolutely owning your ***. His point is simple. How can Israel negotiate with an organization that rejects its very existence? You're perceiving this to be a circular argument because you can't answer this question.
 

Tangled up in Blue

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I only think you're finding this tiresome because your adversary is absolutely owning your ***. His point is simple. How can Israel negotiate with an organization that rejects its very existence? You're perceiving this to be a circular argument because you can't answer this question.

I refer you to this section of the article with which I started this thread:-

<Moreover, once Hamas gained power through the ballot box, its *leaders adopted a more pragmatic stand *towards Israel than that enshrined in its charter, repeatedly expressing its readiness to negotiate a long-term ceasefire. But there was no one to talk to on the Israeli side.

Israel adamantly refused to recognise the Hamas-led government. The US and the European Union *followed, *resorting to economic *sanctions in a vain attempt to turn the people against their elected leaders. This cannot *possibly bring *security or stability *because it is based on the denial of the most *elementary human rights of the people of Gaza and the collective political rights of the *Palestinian people.<

For a long time the British Goverment refused to negociate with the IRA on the basis that they were terrorists(although we now know they did in fact secretely negociate with them under both Wilson/Callaghan and later even Thatcher).Likewise the South African Government refused for many years to negociate with the ANC before they realised that the game was up.
Like it or not Hamas were elected at the ballot box.They are the elected representatives of the Palestinian people in Gaza.Israel will have to recognise them officially at some point and negociate with them -in secret at first if need be.
Please read(or re-read) the original article carefully.The only substantial point that has been raised against it was that there was not a complete ceasefire.
The Palestinian people no longer speak with one voice as they did under Yasser Arafat.That is why IMO an historic opportunity for peace has been missed.In the present situation, the Israeli Government will have to talk with all the major elected representatives of the Palestinian people in Gaza and the West Bank,That now means not only Fatah but also Hamas.
Whatever Hamas's charter contains they were prepared to negociate a ceasefire with Israel.Israel opted instead for regime change which did not and will not work.They'll have to negociate(secretly if need be).That is the only way to achieve :peace:
 
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